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Recent Five Nights at Freddy's news megathread.

Due to the amount of news we've been getting recently, the moderator team has listened to a few suggestions and has decided to make another megathread.
Steel Wool:
The interview also confirms there's something the community hasn't uncovered in Help Wanted
"The FNAF fandom is keen at finding hidden secrets in every Five Nights at Freddy’s game, but is there something in Help Wanted that the fans haven’t found yet?"
"Yes. Oh, did you expect me to say it? No dice!"
"Okay folks, this is the only news you're going to get about this for a while, but try to be patient! I know sometimes it can seem like everything has come to a stop when there is no news, but in this case it's quite the opposite. There has been a lot of great stuff going on behind the scenes. This game isn't set to appear until the end of the year; and despite how that may sound on the surface, it's very good news! More to come!"
On top of that. Steel Wool wished the series a happy 6th anniversary and included art done by one of their great concept artists, cakepaints.
Illumix:
-On 8/15/2020, a new email was added to the game hinting at a new character.
Clickteam:
Scott Cawthon:
Whether or not the comment was referring to Security Breach or a brand new project is unknown for certain, so please avoid taking this as confirmation of a brand new game.
Samantha Cavallara was hired for "What a sweet kid, no evil intentions!"
Books:
Upcoming merch:
On the same day, Scott himself left a statement on the post consisting of "Hey everyone, try not to let any of this bother you too much. Things will be happening very, very differently going forward."
-On 9/4/2020, a new FNaF board game was revealed.
Five Nights at Freddy's Movie:
-Blumhouse founder Jason Blum went on record stating development of the film is super active and that it's moving forward and not stalled despite the lack of announcements
-Jason Blum is in talks with Matpat for appearing in a Game Theory video answering some questions regarding the FNaF Movie.
Subreddit and Discord:
Crossovers:
Never thought we'd get another crossover, last time one happen it was Chica in Creepy Castle. But we do got some news regarding a recent but minor one.
This post will be updated if any more news is released
Fangames
OK, I NEVER EXPECTED THIS TO HAPPEN EITHER.
Scott has stated he will be throwing his own cash toward development of new games in a few particular fan game series, but will stay out of the development of the games and leave the creators to do their own thing.
Once the games are finished, they will be released on Gamejolt for free per usual. However the difference now is that they’ll also be bundled up with other games from the same series, such as the classic versions, or remakes, or minigames, and if all goes to plan be sold on most major consoles and mobile as well. There's also a genuine chance that there may be some toys and other merchandise of these fangames as well.
The titles that will be featured in the initial lineup include:
On 9/24/2020, Kane made a video explaining what The Fazbear Fanverse Initiative was and answered some questions about it.
Jonochrome has also released updated versions of ONaF 1 and 2 that remove copyrighted material and replaces them with references to his previous work such as Riddle School and Can't Food as well as a extra night to ONaF 1 on gamejolt. Not only that, he also posted the first teaser of ONaF 3 on twitter including a hidden message.
On 8/28/2020, Jonochrome released a video talking about the third Flumpty's game.
Scott also mentioned that since some of the older fangames may have used copyrighted assets or assets created by other people, etc., that some are getting remade in part or remade entirely! Some being remade completely from the ground up with new character designs, new sound design and new artwork! Not only that if it goes well, Scott stated he can try and add more fangames to this project in the future!
submitted by SpringPopo to fivenightsatfreddys [link] [comments]

Boosted Rev Battery Specs

Hello Boosted Rev owners and appreciators,
I was wondering if anyone could help me to find the battery specs of the Boosted Rev Scooter,
I bought one in US and going to ship it to UK, but it appears to be a lot of hassle and paperwork.
The specs am trying to clarify are:
1) Safety Data Sheets for the Rev battery
2) What makes the item hazardous (I.e. flammable gas, corrosive, etc.)
3) All Dangerous Goods have a UN classification reference, please provide this if you know
4) What is the volume or weight of the actual hazardous material ( for example you may have a 1 quart jar (32 oz.) of corrosive, but the actual amount of corrosive is 20 oz., and/or you may have multiple
quantities)
The Boostedusa.com Customer support doesn't provide this information, since that they are not the original Boosted.
If anyone ever shipped the battery internationally and have some information on that, please share :)
Much appreciated,
Thanks.
submitted by Mighty_flyt to boostedscooters [link] [comments]

On Whiteness: How Race and White Supremacy Affect Discourse Surrounding Masculinity

Good day all and happy belated birthday to /MensLib!.
So, we’ve had some substantial growth over the past year, which is great. But that also means that some of the issues that plague the sub are becoming much more noticeable. One of these problems is how we talk about race.
There seems to be this underlying assumption that when we talk about “men”, we are talking about white men specifically unless stated otherwise. That’s something that we’ve wanted to avoid here as it’s a pretty prevalent sentiment in most gender discussions, whether that be in the feminism camp or, especially, with the men’s rights activist camp. We try to talk about issues concerning non-white men as well, meaning that we often discuss race and racism.
That said, there is one aspect of race that we haven’t and desperately need to tackle. And that is the concept of whiteness.
So, what is “whiteness”?
Whiteness can be best described as a set of privileges, experiences, and characteristics attached to the white race and those who are deemed white while simultaneously excluding those who are perceived as non-white.
So, much like race, which is mostly agreed upon by anthropologists as not having a biological basis, whiteness itself is a… ahem… social construct. Race is much like currency in that it doesn’t inherently have value and it only has value because we arbitrarily assign it value.
This, obviously, isn't to say that white people don't exist. Irish, British, Germany, Swedish and other European nationalities exist. White people in the US, Canada, and Australia do indeed exist. However, the idea of a clear genetic set of traits that would constitute someone being deemed "white" is hotly contested if not outright denied.
The concept of “race” as we colloquially define and understand it did not exist until relatively recently in human history. Before that, people classified and identified themselves based on things like nationality and tribe.
When African peoples were brought over during the slave trade, their languages, traditions, and cultures were systematically erased in favor of a collective black race. Several generations of slavery led to many African Americans not being able to easily trace their lineage to a specific country, unlike many white people. In lieu of this, “blackness” was constructed as a contrast to whiteness; an “other”. It was adopted by black Americans to identify a shared experience and history in a world that denigrates those of African descent in favor of white people of European descent.
Whiteness is built on exclusion.
How does whiteness manifest? How does it persist?
Through legislation, infrastructure, social and class mobility, language, and certain flavors of pseudoscience, whiteness establishes itself as the dominant and default experience and perspective, normalizing itself while racializing and othering non-whites.
Legislative endeavors such as the Pocahontas Exception and the various Naturalization Acts have sought to create delineations of different racial and ethnic groups, thus endowing certain (namely white) individuals with rights and privileges not afforded to other racial groups. The most sought after of these rights is citizenship, wherein some wished citizenship in the States and elsewhere attempted to appeal to racist sensibilities with varying success. The legal and social status of "white" served as a mighty temptation for which many abandoned their own cultural roots and kin to obtain.
And this is to say nothing of Jim Crow laws, the Chinese Exclusion Act, the Japanese incarceration camps during WWII, Operation Wetback, and the legalized compulsory sterilization in the US and even Canada. And of course, there’s the contemporary camps holding immigrants at the US southern border and the US criminal justice system, which while not explicitly targeting black and brown individuals with policing, still has massive bias towards them by linking one’s race with their predilection for criminality.
Wealth, land, and resources were largely accumulated by the US and Europe through centuries of exploitation of African slaves, Indigenous peoples, settlers, immigrants and nations. The exploitation that led to the acquisition of these commodities consisted of rather brutally violent means like the spread of disease, war, expulsion, slavery and even attempts at genocide.
The Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade produced copious amounts of profit due to the abundance of the unpaid labor of African slaves. Even after the "abolishment" of slavery, an exception for prisoners was explicitly carved out in the 13th Amendment which disproportionally affects black and Latino people. This allows for the continuous exploitation of the labor of, primarily, people of color, despite being a supposed "post-racial" society. Slavery, in the United States, is still very much legal. This, combined with other policies and endeavors by governing bodies like redlining has ensured that generations of white families--including the poor and working-class ones--have more wealth than their black counterparts despite attempts to close that gap.
On the subject of redlining, wealth distribution also has its effects on neighborhoods in two prominent ways: gentrification and white flight. The movement of wealthy and middle-class whites between neighborhoods helps to cement racial stratification along class lines. This affects black, Asian, Latinx, and other non-white families.
Class stratification also worsens the education and career opportunities of certain racial groups. Good education is denied or severely limited for poor blacks--though even in school, black students still suffer--while Asian people are pitted against them as the “model minority” despite them often not meeting the standards placed upon them by the white ruling class as a “model minority”. Affirmative action, a practice often misunderstood by opponents as “the thing that gives black people jobs and spots in good schools even when they don’t deserve them, thus depriving qualified white people of getting those opportunities”, is arguably the main force driving the wedge between Asian and Black people despite white women being the disproportionate benefactors while also staunchly opposing it.
Modern methods of maintaining a racial hierarchy are mostly subtle with little-to-no open calls for outright discrimination but can trace their origins to more explicit means. While anthropologists and geneticists are mostly in agreement that the classification of “race” doesn’t have much, if any, biological basis, great pains have been taken to ascribe “scientific” (now rightfully dubbed pseudoscience) foundations onto race to expressly justify the hierarchies that have already been put into place.
The taxonomy of race has gone through numerous iterations, many of which revolve around skeletal--particularly cranial--measurements. The central idea of white (read: primarily descendant from Europe) superiority preceded attempts to justify it through science, much like with religion before the Enlightenment Period.
Two of the most well-known dubious areas of science popularized during the Enlightenment were Phrenology and Physiognomy. Both pseudosciences sought to derive personality traits, intelligence, and propensity for moral actions from skull shape and size (Phrenology) and facial features (Physiognomy). It is not a coincidence that these fields of study, championed by white men, attributed negative personality traits and the inclination to perform immoral acts to those with non-white facial features and bone structures, while the features linked to virtue and high intelligence were, conveniently, those commonly held by those of European descent.
Currently, "race science" has made an unfortunate and unwelcome comeback through the revitalization of the IQ debate. The intelligence quotient, originally used as a measure to determine the developmental needs of students, has since been co-opted by eugenicists and race scientists alike once coming stateside, creating a false narrative of the intellectual inferiority of those of African descent whether being in or outside the US.
This is important to mention because a common occurrence in racial discourse is the denial of the existence of non-American racism or downplaying of its severity. While the US has its own brand of racism that is abhorrent on its own, make no mistake. White supremacy is not solely a US phenomenon; it is a global one. Colonialism, imperialism, and race-based discrimination along with their effects can be felt far outside the borders of the United States.
Racist myths and conspiracy theories like The Great Replacement and White Genocide are heavily Euro-focused, centered on a looming threat of Muslim and North African invasion of majority-white European nations like France and Sweden that is thought to bring violent crime, sexual assault (of white women) and “extinction” of white people in their supposed homelands.
Much like how “American” is often assumed to have the unspoken identifier of “white” unless said otherwise, many countries and citizens in Europe draw racial lines along who is and isn’t French, German, British, etc. While it may be more subtle, there still exists an association between “European” and “white”. It’s also worth noting that racial lines are drawn across religion as well, with whiteness more associated with Christianity while Muslims and Jews are othered in both the US and Europe.
There’s also the deportation of numerous UK citizens, racial disparities in British schools, Haiti paying debts to France as compensation for its slave owners that lost property, the Holocaust and other atrocities and controversies.
These institutions coalesce into a set of biases that prioritize whiteness, white people, and the mythologized and whitewashed “Western Civilization” above all others. It influences perceptions and modes of interaction between white people and non-white people.
Bias against non-Anglo Saxon AKA "white-sounding" names is known to influence hiring practices, barring non-white people from obtaining employment despite being qualified. Linguistics and beauty standards also play a role. Even lighter skin among racial and ethnic minorities is considered more desirable. Indeed, one’s proximity to whiteness affects their lot in life.
Biases also occur in the application of technology and medicine, disciplines often thought to be havens of objectivity. Lack of acknowledgment of racial biases or systemic racism often colors our use of algorithms that we rely heavily on their ubiquity, leading to disastrous results. Even among healthcare professionals, people tasked with ensuring that we live healthier lives and are healed from injury, carry biases against non-white people resulting in varying health outcomes. Ironically enough, this lackluster treatment of pain in Black and Latinx communities has given rise to the opioid crisis, a health crisis that is identified as such due to its impact on poor white communities.
These biases can be extremely dangerous. Fear, resentment, and misunderstanding towards non-white bodies have been at the crux of black and brown suffering. It is fueled by an unwillingness and inability to accurately assess the humanity of non-white people, which speaks to an ever-present racial empathy gap. Now, while the number of studies suggesting a dehumanizing factor in racist thinking are vast, some say that it is, in fact, removal of dignity that fuels racist atrocities. Nevertheless, non-whites have, in some way, been deemed as lesser people of lesser status than of whites.
Racism exists in a plethora of modes, not just hatred as many of us have been raised to believe. Animosity, indifference, deflection, and dismissal are all possible manifestations of racism. These manifestations are what people of color must contend with when interacting with white people in racial contexts.
White Fragility
The institutions previously mentioned have simultaneously afforded white people with protections from race-based difficulties while also providing psychological and sociological defenses against adequately addressing the depths and sources of these protections. The insolation from racial stimuli and stress has created a state of mind called white fragility.
Think of the reactions to black people simply making the crisis of police brutality against black bodies known to the public, disregarding any violence on the part of protesters (if it’s referenced at all). The message that black people’s lives are worthy of respect and dignity is appropriated, twisted, and repackaged to show support for the very entity that is causing said crisis (Blue/Police Lives Matter). Or, the focus on black people is diminished and expanded, therefore erasing the unique racial tension laden within the problem (All Lives Matter).
Think of the reactions to non-whites actively or passively congregating in their own spaces without the explicit presence of white people, despite numerous white spaces that non-whites have to navigate on a daily basis just by virtue of living and that is seen as mundane and ubiquitous.
Think of the reactions to black success and representation in entertainment and business, particularly film and games.
Think of the reactions to being asked not to use a slur that has been used to denigrate black people for centuries.
Think of the reactions to Black History Month consisting of calls for a White History Month.
These reactions may seem benign on the surface level but when examined within the context in which they occur, they reveal a subtle desire to bring equilibrium to the racist system that we live in where whiteness is centered and placed at the top. The lack of deference and challenges to white centrality, authority, superiority, and comfort elicit such reactions and defenses. This is what is collectively known as white fragility. It serves to deny people of color the means to properly express their frustrations with a society that has been built on their degradation and that is bolstered by their subservience.
Now, of course, this doesn’t mean that white people cannot face problems of their own and that they can’t express their frustrations with them. Class consciousness is important. However, countering claims of the existence of white privilege with statements of one’s socioeconomic status is flawed because while class and race are often intertwined, they are ultimately separate factors. While a white person can indeed be poor, they are still white. What this means is that on average, a poor white person will have a less stressful (though still stressful) life than a poor black person. And the problems that the poor white person has (even if none of them are self-inflicted) will most likely not be due to their race. This is why class reductionism--the assertion that class is the ultimate, sole, or most important form of oppression--is destructive. It ignores how racism--and even sexism and homophobia--transcend class lines.
In fact, these class struggles are often weaponized by more affluent white people against racial and ethnic minorities by drawing upon latent racial animosity among impoverished and Evangelical whites. The Southern Strategy, in many ways, helped to galvanize white people into supporting policies that hurt their own livelihoods with the promise of preventing minorities from gaining too much power and influence, citing them as the cause for white economic woes.
Preserving whiteness is not only hazardous to non-whites, but also to the many whites that work to maintain it.
What does this have to do with masculinity and Men's Lib?
Quite a lot, actually. Race and gender frequently intersect with each other and, so too, do patriarchy/sexism and white supremacy/whiteness. One would be remiss in not noticing how much white supremacist ideology and whiteness centers around the concerns of white men specifically.
For example, think of the image that pops into one’s mind when we say “man”. More often than not, the man in our minds is white. It speaks to how we center whiteness even in our discussions of gender. It’s sort of like how we think of a man when we think “person” or “human”.
In a much more material example, while pseudoscience has formed some of the bedrock of racial discrimination and exclusion, it has done similarly in regards to gender, placing men (especially white men) above women through faulty explanations and theories. These also extend to the mythologized alpha-beta dichotomy that is often pushed in incel, PUA, and red pill circles despite its non-existence..
Another parallel is what can be described as male fragility. Now, this isn’t a condemnation of men having and expressing emotions of frustration in its entirety. Much like with white fragility, male fragility is expressed when the patriarchal system is challenged. For example, crying because ones loved one has passed away is a healthy expression of vulnerability while crying because a franchise that was previously male-dominated is attempting to garner a wider audience by casting women in leading roles is not. Anger at being personally insulted is expected while anger at women expressing frustration with living in a world that puts their safety and comfort aside in favor of protecting the egos of men is foolhardy.
This plethora of parallels presents itself pristinely within the pathologies of white supremacy. Within white supremacy exists a microcosmic rendition of patriarchy, where white men hold the ultimate seat of authority over white women. White supremacy seeks the dominance of not just white people, but white men most of all. This isn’t to say that white women aren’t instrumental in promoting and propagating white supremacy. But there is a strong current of misogyny within the ideology that can’t be ignored.
Several racist conspiracy theories and policies are based on the masculine and sexual anxieties of white men. Chinese immigration was severally limited and opposed not only out of fear of white working-class jobs being stolen but were justified with the pretext of protecting white women from lecherous outsiders who brought sexual violence. This same pretext led to numerous lynchings of black men in the US, formed the basis of fearmongering during the refugee crisis in Europe, and is the underlying vehicle believed to drive the white genocide myth. It’s worth noting that despite the fear of non-white sexual predators, black; immigrant; and indigenous women routinely suffered sexual violence at the hands of colonists and slave owners through stereotyping and sexual objectification.
Whiteness and, by extension, white supremacy is a dangerous pathology that leads to a horrific magnitude of suffering. Lives have been lost--both by non-whites and whites alike--in order to maintain its presence and hold on society. The white supremacists that one may be most familiar with--the KKK, the Nazis, the Alt-Right, etc.--are merely extensions of a system that already prioritizes white identities over others.
They are the inevitable conclusion.
So, what is the point of all of this?
As stated at the beginning of this piece, I wanted to bring this topic up as it was long overdue. I and the other mods along with some of our users of color have noticed a startling number of incidents in which people like Nazis have been excused as simply troubled individuals along with cases of POC being talked over and railroaded about their experiences with race. The mere mention of white culpability in racism and lack of POC attention to and deference to white people on a website that is predominantly white elicits some extremely troubling vernacular and denial of POC experiences.
To be absolutely clear, none of what I have written should be interpreted to mean that white people are inherently evil. It should also not read as a long-winded expression of hatred towards white people on my part. This was more of an educational endeavor, mainly to contextualize why we, as a society and as a subreddit, tend to empathize with burgeoning and even all-out Nazis when we probably shouldn’t.
This is why pointing to people like Daryl Davis as the gold standard for dealing with racial injustice is a problem. It relies upon the deference to whiteness and white people that is expected of people of color which affords white supremacists with the empathy and humanity that is already taken for granted but is often denied to people of color. It assumes that all or even most people of color have the resources and assurance that would allow them to communicate with them without fear of losing one’s life or peace of mind. It ignores the instances of systemic racism that are much more pervasive, much like curing a symptom rather than the disease.
This is also why invoking Dr. Martin Luther King’s legacy and (mis)quoting him when black people are enraged and aren’t the nicest towards white people is also an issue. It ignores just how little the white population approved of King even after his death. It ignores how even his non-violent protests were seen as threatening. It ignores his stances on white moderates who wished for black people to wait out their oppression, placing white feelings over black lives.
Now, some may be thinking that my writing will somehow push potential allies away and even towards the alt-right. Some may think that I’m doing a terrible job of bringing in new converts to the Men’s Liberation cause.
This assumes that my goal is to convert people. It isn't and it never was. I'm simply explaining the state of affairs. That is not an invitation to tell me or any person of color how one should be more welcoming to people who need to be "convinced" that non-white people are human beings while they're teetering on the edge of becoming a white nationalist. This centers the feelings of racist white people above the feelings of those who are being actively hated and oppressed by them.
Also, think about this statement. What you are essentially saying is that white people are justified in holding the humanity and fair treatment of minorities for ransom by doubling down on racism when a minority isn't exceptionally nice and accommodating when pointing out racial injustices. It's placing white people's feelings and comfort over that of minority wellbeing, which is part of the problem addressed in this entire screed. The job of catering to the emotional sensibilities of white people, especially white men, usually falls on the shoulders of minority groups and women so as not to bruise egos. In fact, while writing this piece, I keep finding myself worrying about how I can spare the feelings of readers when I know that my wellbeing takes precedence. Some may think that this a good thing and that I should reconsider my message because of that. But I won’t.
In any case, the people who these white men are most likely to listen to or even the only people that they'll listen to… is other white men. This is okay for a starting position but the people who have the institutional power and, therefore, need to have this conversation with white people… are other white people.
Further reading and information:
Seeing White podcast series
White Fragility: Why It's So Hard for White People to Talk About Racism and What Does It Mean to Be White?: Developing White Racial Literacy by Robin DiAngelo
So You Want To Talk About Race by Ijeoma Oluo
Why I’m No Longer Talking to White People About Race by Reni Eddo-Lodge
The White Racial Frame: Centuries of Racial Framing and Counter-Framing by Joe R. Feagin
Stamped from the Beginning: The Definitive History of Racist Ideas in America by Ibram X. Kendi
The History of White People by Nell Irvin Painter
EDIT: I find it interesting that multiple people in this thread find the terms "whiteness" and "white supremacy" too inflammatory and confusing and want me to change the terminology to get white people more onboard. Almost like the whole section on white fragility has some validity to it.
EDIT 2: It's also interesting that there are people who think that this space isn't the place to talk about racial issues. This enforces the perspective that white people are the default and that non-white people are "special cases" and that they should be relegated elsewhere.
EDIT 3: Also adding What Does It Mean to Be White?: Developing White Racial Literacy by Robin DiAngelo for further reading thanks to FillerTank
submitted by BreShark to MensLib [link] [comments]

Britain would have no say under EEA EFTA Brexit? [Updated!]

There is a lack of transparency from Brussels in declaring the international origin of its rules and regulations. For example, in September 2013 the EU released Regulation (EU) No 1169/2011 (https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2011:304:0018:0063:EN:PDF) which prohibited the use of the EU flags on retail packets of meat. If research is carried out further on the subject, you find that this rule actually comes from Codex Stan 1-1985 (http://www.fao.org/input/download/standards/32/CXS_001e.pdf). Portions of the Codex standard were copy and pasted into the EU Regulation. Further, the legal base of this standard was the WTO Agreement on Rules of Origin. Yet, the EU Regulation does not once mention this. This is what I meant above by "lack of transparency". Another example would be the "Plant Reproductive Material Law"--originating, but not exclusively, from OECD rules, regulations and guidelines. Another one would be Council Directive 2001/113/EC (https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32001L0113&from=en) relating to fruit jams, jellies and marmalades. The originator of this one is Codex again through Stan 79-1981 (http://www.fao.org/input/download/standards/11254/CXS_296e.pdf).
The "three sisters" recognised by the WTO Sanitary and Phytosanitary Agreement (SPS) are the Codex Commission, the International Plant Protection Convention and the Office INTERNATIONAL des Epizooties. They are the de-facto bodies which set the regulations for trade in animals and animal products throughout the world. The three organisations work intimately in setting their standards, particularly through the Animal Production Food Safety Working Group (https://www.oie.int/doc/ged/D3658.PDF).
On the other hand, it would be unfair to not mention sector-specific organisations. For example, the transboundary movements of hazardous waste (Council Decision 93/98/EEC/Regulation (EC) No 1013/2006) actually originated from the Basel Convention. The Convention was adopted by the EU in 1992. Another one would be the Globally Harmonised System of Classification and Labelling of Chemicals (GHS) by the UNCED--now adopted as EU law (Regulation (EC) No 1272/2008) (https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:32008R1272&from=EN).
These international standards are not voluntary, either. The WTO Technical Barriers to Trade Agreement (TBT)--ratified by the EU in 1994--states that members shall use relevant international standards in preference to their own (Article 2.4). The Sanitary and Phytosanitary Agreement (SPS) (Article 3) says the same. International standards-setting bodies, like Codex, have legislative primacy to the EU. This is what I like to call the conveyor belt of globalisation. Globalisation is not optional for a first-world industrial country in the long run--it is an unstoppable, inevitable force. This is also why the Norway "all the pay, not none of the say" argument is not correct--Norway has an input in the conception and formation of these 'soft laws'. EU membership is less relevant on this conveyor belt of soft law.
Standards for goods and services underpin the integrity of the Single Market, but most people do not fully understand the generators of these standards. You have national standards organisations like the British Standards Institute (UK) and Standard Norge (Norway) which approve standards for machines, equipment, chemicals and other products and own the copyright to publishing their respective national standards. These national standards organisations negotiate with each other to form harmonised standards and then, finally, international standards which are incorporated into the Single Market acquis. National standards organisations also represent their countries at the European Committee for Standardisation (CEN) and International Organisation for Standardisation (ISO). ISO is the organisation which, according to itself, ensures that goods and services are safe, reliable and good quality--this is also helps harmonise and facilitate trade between countries, not just within the Single Market but globally too.
Standard Norge is a member of the CEN and ISO and is responsible for Norwegian influence of European and global standardisation work in all areas except telecommunications and electrotechnicals. Over 2,000 experts in Norway from the business community, police authorities and and employee and consumer organisations participate in this standardisation work. They spend around £20M a year doing this work (https://www.iso.org/membe1994.html). ISO--based in Geneva outside the European Union--is comprised of over 3,000 technical bodies and is described as a Transnational Private Regulator (TPR) which has published over 20,000 standards (technology, business, food safety, computers, agriculture, healthcare, etc.) since its conception. The members of ISO meet once a year at the General Assembly to coordinate their strategic objectives. According to ISO, "ISO International Standards impact everyone, everywhere" (https://www.iso.org/about-us.html).
ISO international standards are what drive European standards created by the three European Standards Organisations (ESOs): CEN (which we mentioned above), CENELEC and ETSI. The standards community has just as significant an impact from Norway as it does from any other EU member state in developing Single Market standards. Here's an example of this system in action.
In 2014, the EU brought in a requirement for CE marking of steel construction products under the Construction Products Regulation (https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2011:088:0005:0043:EN:PDF). If you look into the recitals, this regulation actually came from CEN Eurocodes (see: Recital 18). This standard was developed in conjunction with the ISO, giving them a global application. If we look to the Vienna Agreement of 1991, the EU through CEN recognised the primacy of International Standards (through ISO) to its own (see WTO Code of Conduct). It is committed to co-ordinating its own standards with those of ISO. This establishes a hierarchical dominance of ISO--rendering the EU subordinate to it. Since Norway is a member of the ISO, it is incorrect to claim it "has no say" when, in fact, quite the opposite is true--Norway is sat at the top of the food chain. (https://boss.cen.eu/ref/Vienna_Agreement.pdf)
Electrotechnical standards are driven primarily by the International Electrotechnical Commission, which CENELEC co-operates with through the Frankfurt Agreement--a new agreement signed recently in 2016 (ftp://ftp.cencenelec.eu/CENELEC/Guides/CLC/13_CENELECGuide13.pdf). It re-iterates the hierarchical principle I outlined earlier:
...this new agreement preserves the spirit and approach conveyed by the Dresden Agreement, in particular the strategic commitment of CENELEC to supporting the primacy of international standardization. It includes several update aiming to simplify the parallel voting processes, and increases the traceability of international standards adopted in Europe thanks to a new referencing system. (https://www.cenelec.eu/aboutcenelec/whoweare/globalpartners/iec.html)
If CENELEC wants to create a new standard in Europe, it first has to go to the IEC (usually) and offer what is called a New Work Item. The IEC can then choose whether to accept the standard or reject it to be scrapped or modified by CENELEC and then re-introduced at a public enquiry stage. Sometimes, a standard may not be submitted but it must be justified--the Frankfurt Agreement, however, strongly recommends the NWI to be offered. The EFTA Secretariat can also submit an NWI to IEC--again, the "all the pay, none of the say" argument is incorrect. (https://boss.cenelec.eu/homegrowndeliverables/propnewwork/Pages/default.aspx). If the NWI is accepted, a process called parallel voting takes place. If the outcome is positive, CENELEC ratifies the standard and IEC publishes the international standard. This system provides more evidence for the workings of the TBT Agreement.
EU legislative monopoly is a myth.
Norwegian Foreign Minister Ine Eriksen Søreide: "Even though Norway is not a member of the EU",” she said, "we will be active participants rather than passive observers", in trying to influence EU policy. (http://www.newsinenglish.no/2018/05/11/norway-first-in-new-eu-strategy/) (https://www.regjeringen.no/globalassets/departementene/ud/dokumenteeu/eu_strategy.pdf)
Two Europe-wide regional bodies are the Council of Europe and the United Nations Economic Commission Europe. The former is more of a stand-alone international cul-de-sac group but UNECE is a hierarchical entity as one of five UN regional commissions, it is based in Geneva outside of the European Union and reports to the UN Economic and Social Council (ECOSOC). UNECE consists of 56 members including most of Europe, the USA, central Asia, Canada and Israel and its job is to nurture economic integration between its members.
UNECE is essentially the originator of all technical standards to do with transport (docks, railways and road networks) within the Single Market (http://www.unece.org/leginsttrans.html). UNECE and the United Nations Environment Program (UNEP) are responsible for pollution and climate change issues and hosts five conventions spanning from transboundary air pollution to the Aarhus Convention (http://www.unece.org/env/welcome.html). UNECE is also the originator of agricultural quality standards (http://www.unece.org/housing-and-land-management/about-us/working-group-on-a-possible-framework-convention-on-sustainable-housing.html) and (http://www.unece.org/leginstagri.html). UNECE is a key developer of the global harmonised system (GHS) for the classification and labelling of chemicals (http://www.unece.org/trans/dangepubli/ghs/ghs_welcome_e.html).
UNECE is also essentially the originator of vehicle safety and environmental impact (air and water pollution) standards via the UNECE Transport Division, which provides a Secretariat for the World Forum for the Harmonisation of Vehicle Regulations (WP.29) (http://www.unece.org/trans/main/welcwp29.html). All participating countries (EU is included in this) have signed a 1998 agreement voluntarily giving UNECE the legal framework of propagating type approvals for vehicles and their components. Essentially what this means is that WP.29 is the originator of standards which allows cars to be traded within the signatory states and which permits the sale of safety-critical spare parts. WP.29 currently has 57 signatories including the EU, Japan and South Korea. Here is a more detailed article on WP.29: https://www.reddit.com/ukpolitics/comments/8xyy1n/unece_wp29_is_one_example_of_the_benefit_of/
The UNECE instruments of relevance are called "UN Regulations" and these vary from headlamps to crashworthiness and environmental compatibility to tyres and wheels. What the EU does is copies and pastes these UN Regulations into the Single Market acquis--the EU is very clear about this in this case. For example, Regulation No 73/2007 on the uniform provisions concerning the approval of goods vehicles, trailers and semi-trailers with regard to their lateral protection, the EU tells us: "Only the original UN/ECE texts have legal effect under international public law. The status and date of entry into force of this Regulation should be checked in the latest version of the UN/ECE status document TRANS/WP.29/343" (https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:42010X0513(04)&from=EN). More importantly, it's role is also exposed in DIRECTIVE 2007/46/EC (https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32007L0046&from=EN). UNECE is supreme to the EU with respect to these releavnt matters it decrees upon.
Incredibly, there is even a Government report which acknowledges this:
In many instances, EU action needs to be seen in the context of international arrangements at the UN Economic Commission for Europe (UNECE). (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/278966/boc-transport.pdf)
And, remember, UNECE does not just deal with automotive regulation--it deals with agricultural regulation too. For example, when the "bendy banana" and "curvy cucumber" directives were dropped (this is when the EU abolished 26 of 36 marketing standards for fruits and veggies), the media made a great deal of this (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/2453204/Bent-banana-and-curved-cucumber-rules-dropped-by-EU.html). These were then replaced with General Marketing Standards (GMS)--you can read about this here https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2011:157:0001:0163:EN:PDF). These GMS's are actually UNECE standards! (http://www.unece.org/trade/agstandard/fresh/ffv-standardse.html). So in this case, the EU didn't actually drop regulations at all for the benefit of consumers but it bumped up the official standards setting to UNECE, which is now the supreme body in terms of agricultural standards. They even have their own Cucumber Standard (FFV-15) "concerning the marketing and commercial quality control of cucumbers" (http://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trade/agstandard/standard/fresh/FFV-Std/English/15_Cucumbers.pdf). No pictures, I'm afraid :3. So for cucumbers to be traded within the Single Market, they must conform to those UNECE standards.
UNECE creates standards relating to transport, agriculture and air and water pollution. This gives it a significant amount of regulatory power and influence over the EU. It also had a role in the controversial ISDS mechanisms found in the TTIP via the UNCITRAL international arbitration rule, but that's off-topic. One could imagine one day UNECE and other international standards organisations completely taking over and overhauling the Single Market acquis through the WTO TBT Agreement (that which EEA EFTA States and EU States follow) as the conveyor belt of globalisation and harmonisation of standards rolls on.
UNECE remains virtually unknown to people thanks to the ignorance of politicians and the wider media.
Also thanks to Dr Richard North and EFTA4UK!
Norway only has to adopt ~25% of all EU law (https://twitter.com/EFTAsecretariat/status/660101584177774594) and (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/browse/directories/legislation.html). It only has to follow rules relating to trade facilitation within the Single Market, not political legislation such as the Common Commercial Policy, Common Foreign Policy, Common Fisheries Policy, etc. Norway is only treaty-bound to adopt Single Market-related legislation. There is a Norwegian Government report which claimed to the contrary on the 25% figure, but I can give you the information as to why it's wrong if you like.
ECJ has no jurisdiction over Norway. This is conducted by the EFTA Court, which doesn't act as a rubber stamp but considers each case on its merits. *It is noticeable more pro-market than Brussels "as we think that market-inspired solutions are the best." (See: Netherlands bailing out bank Icesave's depositors).
Anne Tvinnereim, former Norwegian State Secretary for the Ministry of Local Government and Regional Development: "but we do get to influence the position". In international relations, "most of the politics is done long before it [a new law] gets to the voting stage" (http://www.regjeringen.no/en/dep/ud/documents/propositions-and-reports/reports-to-the-storting/2012-2013/meld-st-5-20122013/2/4/1.html?id=732554)
Professor Carl Baudenbacher, senior judge and former President of the EFTA Court: do not place too much emphasis on the importance of a vote. "Most EU policymaking is conducted by consensus".
In respect of Council discussions on Schengen-relevant legislation, that it does not have the right to vote at any stage of the decision-making process and does not participate in the formal adoption of legislation. But in practice, it says, "experience has shown that this is less important than the opportunities we have to influence other countries by putting forward effective, coherent arguments".
The most important time for influencing the development of Schengen legislation is early in the Council's decision-making process. This influence is expressed in working groups and committees under the Council, immediately after the Commission has put forward a proposal for a legal act". Schengen member states, including Norway, it adds, participate by providing expert input in the fields concerned. The extent to which the efforts of each of the countries have an impact depends largely on the quality of the expertise provided and the arguments used. Norway has the same opportunities to promote its views as the EU member states.
"Fax democracy" was a label coined by Norwegian Prime Minister, Jens Stoltenberg, in February 2001 to look to promote full EU membership to his reluctant countrymen, who had already twice rejected it.
I'd also point you to the OECD's International Regulatory Cooperation strategy, makes for interesting reading.
The OECD's International Regulation Cooperation (IRC) are eleven mechanisms designed to glue and make sense of the complex relationships of international collaborations (https://read.oecd-ilibrary.org/governance/international-regulatory-co-operation_9789264200463-en#page6).
1) Integration/harmonisation through supranational institutions (EU)
2) Specific negotiated agreements (treaties/conventions)
3) Formal regulatory co-operation partnerships (USCRCC)
4) Joint standard setting through intergovernmental organisations
5) Trade agreements with regulatory provisions (RTAs, FTAs)
6) Mutual recognition agreements (MRAs)
7) Transgovernmental regulator networks (ILAC, ICPEN, PIC/S)
8) Unilateral convergence
9) Recognition and incorporation of international standards (ISO, IEC)
10) Soft law instruments
11) Informal dialogues
The UK already subscribes to these eleven mechanisms--after all, it's why we have the Department for International Development (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/32467/12-533-regulatory-cooperation.pdf). Interestingly, it notes that trading through global standards is a better practice as otherwise harmonisation between economies may be rendered incompatible due to differing regional standards. However, this does not preclude trade, as mutual recognition of existing standards between nations is an option. The Single Market is an ultimate example of international regulatory cooperation.
http://www.eftacourt.int/fileadmin/user_upload/Files/Events/2018_CB_Stepping_down_from_EFTA_Court.pdf
Former President of the EFTA Court Professor Carl Baudenbacher:
But homogeneity is not a one-way street. To date the EFTA Court has rendered some 200 judgments in contested cases which have led to 238 references by the ECJ, its Advocates General and the EU General Court in 151 cases. The EFTA Court is thus the only court of general jurisdiction that is regularly cited by the Union judiciary when interpreting EU law.
The EEA Agreement is a trade agreement. Its objective is to integrate the EFTA States that are party to it in the single market. But it doesn’t aim to create an “ever closer union”.
Claus-Dieter Ehlermann, the former Chairman of the World Trade Organization’s Appellate Body and former Director-General for Competition in the European Commission, has spoken of a certain systemic competition which benefits both EEA Courts. The late former Luxembourgish ECJ Judge Pierre Pescatore, another international trade law specialist, has made similar remarks. In order to avoid any misunderstanding, I should emphasise that an open market orientation does not mean that the Court is antisocial. It rather means that it is anti-protectionist.
(3) In Fosen-Linjen (E-16/16), a public authority had awarded a public contract to the wrong bidder. The EFTA Court had to answer the question of whether a simple breach of public procurement law was sufficient to trigger liability or whether a qualified breach was required. The question posed was: Should the State be privileged when taking part in the market economy as a commercial operator just because it is the State? We said no. This corresponds to the teachings of liberal economics; I may mention, for example, the father of ordoliberalism, Walter Eucken. Our judgment was a vote against opaque mercantilism and moral hazard. I am curious to see how the ECJ whose case law on this point has not been very clear (compare C-413/09 Strabag and C-568/08 Combinatie Spijkers) will decide such matters in the future.
Former President of ECJ Vassilios Skouris:
“The long lasting dialogue between the EFTA Court and the CJEU has allowed the flow of information in both directions [….]. The symbiotic nature of the relationship has contributed to the successful development of the EEA Single Market. Both courts stand as examples for each other thus depicting mutual respect, strengthening the rules of homogeneity and representing a high level of appreciation. Cooperation between the two was built on strong foundations which have stood the test of time.”
The UNECE’s World Forum for Harmonisation for Vehicle Regulations based in Geneva is an important global standard setting body. Today, 54 governments are parties to an international agreement for ‘type approval’ regulations that are critical to the safety performance of vehicles on our roads.
The UNECE works by consensus and there is no voting except as a formality. The fact that the EU has 28 members to vote as a block is not only its greatest strength, but also its greatest weakness in terms of global integration. The US and Canada are part of UNECE but not WP.29 as they have only adopted the 1998 Agreement as opposed the full members adopting 1958, 1997 and 1998 Agreements. WP.29 is an unbalanced voting system and will never be global until the US and Canada is onboard. The stronger the EU gets, the weaker UNECE gets. So in a way, the UK leaving the EU's voting bloc on WP.29 would be a step toward more global integration, on aggregate, than remaining in that voting bloc. It adds a powerful and independent voice into the mix, which will only encourage the US and Canada to better consider being part of WP.29. Additionally, must make it clear that all the EU member States do not turn up but the EU exercises the power of their votes for them.
either:
a) EEA/EFTA State/Non-EU State agrees with the EU's common position, so votes along with their block to support the vote anyways (as they would inside the EU, so there is no tangible loss of influence in this case)
b) EEA/EFTA State/Non-EU disagrees with the EU's common position (and would, thus, disagree with it inside the EU) but instead of being forced to vote along with the common position it commands its own vote on this international stage--
So there is not a tangible loss of influence. IF ANYTHING, there is a gain of influence.
Formal communications and voting power with international bodies is conducted by the EU, not the individual EU states themselves.
EEA/EFTA States do not need to arrive at such a "common" position. This is an advantage as, if they agree on strategy with the EU they can vote with them. But if they so happen to disagree, they command their own national voting power. I'll give you an example of this.
The maritime industry has suggested that the EU can detract from the UK's scope to act effectively. Here is what the UK Chamber of Shipping said:
Shipping is in the unusual position of [...] also being subject to very extensive and successful regulation at world-wide level [...] it remains imperative that shipping, as a global sector, should be regulated at the global level.
The industry was not supportive of the European Commission ambition to represent all EU States at the IMO or ILO and considered that Member States were more effective in the IMO when acting as individual entities. (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/278966/boc-transport.pdf).
Lloyd's Register, a technical and business services organisation and a maritime classification society dedicated to research and education in science and engineering, put it quite nicely by saying the EU was not a "flag" and has no international treaty obligations in the maritime world. On the other hand, the UK is a "flag" and has those obligations. Whilst the Commission decides for the "good of the Union", the "flags" should be the ones making their independent decisions. Norway is also a "flag", yet it still a skilled player in the global system--on global councils, they have same voting power as the EU.
Emeritus Fellow at Hertford College (Oxford) Prof. Yarrow: On the EEA EFTA rule-taker issue, "The claim does not stand up to even the lightest of scrutiny. It is, nevertheless, endlessly repeated. "
https://www.reddit.com/ukpolitics/comments/b1rare/emeritus_fellow_at_hertford_college_oxford_prof/
Dakis Hagen QC: No, the Norway option won’t turn Britain into a vassal state http://www.cityam.com/275329/no-norway-option-wont-turn-britain-into-vassal-state
https://www.reddit.com/ukpolitics/comments/by8d6n/efta_secretariat_efta_secretarygeneral_ EFTA Secretary-General Henri Gétaz emphasize EFTA States' full involvement in the European Standardization System and the importance of constructive dialogue between all stakeholders
European Parliament Policy Department for External Relations PE 603.866 March 2018: "There is no direct effect or primacy of EU law... there is no direct ECJ jurisdiction. There may be some scope for using the general safeguard clause, for example in response to a surge in immigration. The EEA would allow the UK to conduct its own trade policy". http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/STUD/2018/603866/EXPO_STU(2018)603866_EN.pdf
EFTA's role in bringing standards: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWXrsKeb6-4&app=desktop
submitted by CupTheBallls to ukpolitics [link] [comments]

Line voltage COBs and a discussion on electrical safety

Part of SAG's lighting guide. Please let me know if you spot any mistakes so I can quickly correct them. I am asking /ElectricalEngineering to review this thread.
This is also be archived in my own subreddit here.
The best 3 minute video on electrical safety on the Internet.
A long rant about removing the cover of LED light bulbs and why it's a bad idea
Why I'm writing this
This is written in response to people using or wanting to make DIY line voltage AC driverless COB "suicide lights" and a discussion on electrical safety in general.
This is also a very strong critique of a few people not taking line voltage electrical safety seriously. I've seen naive people telling others that line voltage is not dangerous and people like this should be condemned. I've also seen "experts" who are not. People who use a faulty appeal to authority are a particular danger and an example will be articulated below.
It only takes a single mistake to have a life altering injury from line voltage.
The problem
People have posted about their line voltage COB lights before on /SpaceBuckets and literally wondered why their heat sink is being energized. I don't know but it only takes a single strand of loose wire to energize a conductor like a heat sink or there could be some some sort of internal fault in the COB packaging with your heat sink that has no grounding. These line voltage COBs are being made as cheaply as possible and you can expect corners to be cut. They are electrically inefficient compared to name brand COBs and tend to have a shorter life span.
Even in my testing of a commercial line voltage COB light I found that they can be unsafe. Why in this case? Because the manufacturer snipped off the grounding wire. The son of a bitch was so cheap that they would not spend ten cents to actually do a proper ground bond in a light fixture with a metal housing. And this was a light being advertised for outdoor use and advertised as water proof. Electricians just looooove metal fixtures that have no grounding. /s in case it was not obvious and an electrician starts swinging a pipe bender around.
Just because you can find it on Amazon does not mean that the electrical device is safe. In US/Canada at least Walmart, Home Depot and the like will only sell stuff that is UL/ETL/CSA listed for safety because they understand lawsuits from selling dangerous devices. Good luck trying to bring legal action against a Chinese importer for an injury or death. CE is not recognized in North America, only nationally recognized testing labs are. I absolutely do not trust a CE mark and below you will see why.
Just because it is sold on Amazon does not mean it's safe. It is quite likely that a COB light from Walmart and the like are safely grounded and should be safe as long as they are not modified.
Cavalier attitudes and electrical safety
To those who say and tell others online that line voltage is not dangerous- would you strip back a line wire and a neutral wire, because “it's not dangerous, lol”, energize the line wire and hold it in one hand, because “it's not dangerous, lol”, and with your other hand grab on to the neutral wire? How about grabbing those wires really tight and then get back to me.
Grab on to that energized line wire with your hand wet from hydroponic solution and stand barefoot on a damp basement concrete floor because “it's not dangerous, lol”.
If you are not willing to do the above then you need to start reflecting on what you are telling people online that line voltage is not dangerous assuming you have a certain level of self-awareness. I know a person who did accidental grab the energized line wire while barefoot on a damp concrete floor with a hydroponic setup. Did it kill her? No, it just dropped her ass and she learned real quick (she also did not have GFCI protection). As an electrician I've got all sorts of these anecdotes. I know a person who became part of a neutral wire in series and ended up with nerve damage from the electrical shock.
But...but...but...I got shocked once and it didn't kill me! (I had a person use this argument once) Well, I've been in a car accident once and it didn't kill me either. It does not mean that car accidents are not dangerous. And it's arrogant to think that your one experience applies to everyone else.
But...but...but...in my country! I honestly don't care how things are done in your country and standards are not going to be lowered for everyone else because "that's the way we do things in my country". That is complete non-sense. If I write about electrical safety in my country while proclaiming expert status in the field, which I do to an extent I can claim that status as an industrial electrician, I also assume certain liabilities and will not hesitate to go before a judge if it came down to that. Will the anonymous person telling you that these line voltage COBs are not dangerous be willing to do the same? Talk is cheap and your safety should not be.
Faulty appeal to authority
When people discuss electrical safety in particular it's never a bad idea to do a call out and question what their credentials are. An "engineer" is not a professional electrical expert when they are a software engineer, as an example, and is a faulty appeal to authority when they do not understand the subject matter.
A person on /SpaceBuckets was once claiming to be an "engineer", messed up a guide on Ohm's Law including a simple problem example because he did not actually understand the material (the LED has a voltage drop, yo), didn't understand how LEDs work (I run LEDs constant voltage without a resistor all the time on a lab power supply when testing them and they have a specific I-V curve. You also can not model an LED as a resistor. And the actual internal resistance of an LED is so low it's usually not considered in almost all circuits), and stated that he was going to be doing a write up on electrical safety. In the comments section he revealed that he was a software engineer rather than an electrical/electronics engineer. This is misleading rubbish because when you talk about electronics and claim to be an engineer people are assuming a type of engineer.
And the "engineer" said he was going to be writing an electrical safety guide....there is a good reason I won't hesitate to do a call out. Why would a layman who does not know the material write a guide about electrical safety when bad information can get people injured or killed? It's stuff like this where I live up to my user name.
When people discuss electrical safety it's never a bad idea to question their credentials. The sources of my information are coming from electrical engineers along with my training as an electrician and not some anonymous person on the Internet with no established history. I do strongly encourage more professional electrical engineers and electricians to bring up electrical safety when dealing with the layman.
Ohm's Law and how almost everyone is measuring body resistance wrong
An argument I've seen is one can take a multimeter, grab the probes, and measure their hand to hand resistance. Hey, I'm reading 100,000 ohms so I can not have a dangerous level of current flowing through me! But that is not how body resistance actually works at higher voltages or how insulation is tested. For that you do a dielectric withstand test and measure the resistance of the body or insulation under test closer to the voltage where the wires or your body will be at with line voltage or at higher voltages.
Electricians/field engineers/some technicians may use a special tool called a “high pot tester” or “high potential tester” where potential means voltage. If you are an electrician you may know them by a trade name of Megger and you may “meg out the wires”. An example of where I did extensive megging was in parking lot lighting with splices directly in water. There was also lots and lots of megging going on when I spent three months rebuilding the Seattle Monorail trains in 1998 as a newer journeyman (that was a surprisingly complex 700 volt DC four speed electromechanical motor control system fused at 10,000 amps).
You need to measure an insulator, like human skin, at a higher voltage to take in to account dielectric breakdown and dielectric breakdown of skin/tissue is a non-linear process as it is with any other insulator. Just because you measure that 100K ohms hand to hand at one volt on your multimeter does not mean it's still going to be at 100K ohms at 230 volts, as an example, because the higher voltage is able to punch through the insulation which is going to change the resistance hand to hand. The amount of time being shocked can also affect dielectric breakdown conditions and the amount of current flow.
Once dielectric breakdown occurs the resistance can be as low as 500 ohms and possibly lower. At 200 volts, for example, you just went from 2 mA which is a very mild shock to perhaps >400 mA which is deadly if the current path goes through the heart. Are you always going to get a complete dielectric breakdown at this 200 volts example? No. Should you treat electricity with enough respect knowing that you can have such a dielectric breakdown? Yeah, you should particularly if you understand ventricular fibrillation.
What makes line voltage so dangerous is that there is a very low electrical system impedance. If you do not understand the previous sentence then you have no business working line voltage. Current is what kills but the voltage drives the current as per Ohm's Law. And the resistance can change by voltage levels.
One way I can instantly tell if someone understands electrical safety is if they do or do not understand the dielectric breakdown of the skin issue at different voltage levels and understanding that it is a non-linear problem. People saying that you can just measure skin resistance with a multimeter, which may output only a few volts for a resistance test, and apply that to line voltage electrical safety do not know what they are talking about and should be ignored as a source for electrical safety information. I see this all over the Internet.
Ingress protection
Ingress protection has to do with the mechanical protection of the electrical device. Less ingress protection may mean you can't stick your finger on energized parts. Really high ingress protection will be water proof.
A line voltage COB with the line wire exposed has no ingress protection. That means that it is unsafe. Period. If you do not understand ingress protection then you have no business as a beginner building line voltage electrical devices like line voltage COB lights.
Kapton tape is not line voltage ingress protection for our purposes. I've seen people posting pics of line voltage COBs with Kapton tape as their "ingress protection". Just no.
But...but...but...what if I make the DIY line voltage COB safe with good ingress protection? You are still showing off something that is inherently dangerous to make which other people will follow. Is their AC line voltage COB setup also safe? There comes a point where a line needs to be drawn in the sand.
Good ingress protection means on a practical level that you would let a two year old toddler play with the energized device unattended without risk of electrical injury. I'm not saying that you should do this, and it does depend on the electrical device of course, but that is the practical standard that you should be going for.
Remember that electrical codes and safety guidelines are typically written in blood.
Soldering and line voltage
I can look back at the quality of the soldering I was doing from +20 years ago and cringe at those circuit boards. Sloppy with cold solder joints partially from using a $5 Radio Shack soldering iron that was not temperature controlled. If you have no experience with soldering then you should gain some experience with something that is not a safety risk like a line voltage COB. There are soldering practice kits made with the absolute beginner in mind.
Cold solder joints in particular are problematic because they may work for awhile before failing. If I want to troubleshoot a circuit board the first thing I do is check for power then I'm looking around for cold solder joints (the third thing is check the capacitors). I have seen wires with cold solder joints pop off of circuit boards. The last thing you want with a line voltage COB is your wires popping off and dangling around.
BTW, if you have issues with solder balling up then you may want to try using an eutectic 63/37 solder instead of more common 60/40 solder beyond proper use of solder flux (you don't always need solder flux since there is already flux in most common electrical solders. For surface mount soldering you probably should use solder flux).
I have seen cold solder joints more than once before when people have posted pics on /SpaceBuckets of their line voltage COB light.
The two hurdles for beginners getting in to electronics are learning how to solder and learning while also intuitively understanding Ohm's Law. There are good temperature controlled soldering irons in the $30 range but I've used a Weller WTCPT for 15 years now without problems with the tips lasing for many thousands of solder joints. I've seen cheap tips give out after a few hundred.
What about lights that plug in to a light socket? They have no ground.
E26/27 light bulbs and the like have no ground since they use a two conductor lighting socket. They are supposed to have an insulation rating to ensure that there is no electrical shock hazard. Remove the cover of a light bulb to get more light on your plants and you just removed the protection. The line voltage circuit board found in LED light bulbs are not isolated from ground and there can be well over 100 volts exposed.
Even then I have found lights that failed my own safety inspections. A test that I do is to reverse the polarity of the line wire and the neutral wire since reverse polarity is a common problem with receptacles particularly in residential environments where the layman is more likely to do their own electrical work. You can buy a receptacle tester to make sure this does not happen or to test your own house.
Here is a light bulb I bought off Amazon that is on reverse polarity with the light switch turned to the off position. Notice how by merely touching the heat sink how I can get the LEDs to light up dimly. This is because there is an AC electrical fault somewhere and illustrates how these cheap no-name Chinese light bulbs can still be problematic when plugged in. In no way should this ever happen and the cheap bulb can light up like this due to body capacitance.
That bulb also has a CE mark on it, with exposed line voltage electrical, which is why I think the CE self-certification program is non-sense when misused like this. An engineering joke is that CE really stands for "China export" rather than "Conformité Européene" ("European Conformity") and a CE marking does not indicate that a product have been approved as safe by the EU or by another authority. CE usually does not need to be tested by a third party for safety. Here's a UK study on CE mark with an important point of "Whilst we are pleased to report that all of the branded chargers passed the conformity tests, not one of the unbranded chargers were considered to be safe, yet all carried the CE mark."
With that same bulb I can hook up line voltage to the heat sink and get those LEDs to light much brighter. In no way should this ever happen that the LEDs light up since the metal heat sink is supposed to be completely isolated.
An issue with some LED light bulbs that have a heavy heat sink is that this puts extra stress on the base itself and I've had numerous instances of the base breaking. This is very unlikely to happen with small LED light bulbs from Walmart etc but could be a major fail for some of these larger LED lights that simply plug in to a light socket particularly if they are not vertical.
Amazon is selling cheap and dangerous lights. And the CE mark is utter non-sense when it is so easily misused from products out of China.
But my phone charger does not have a ground.
Your phone charger is in a plastic case and is double insulated so does not need a ground. There literally is nothing to ground. Look for the square inside a square for a double insulation mark. The output should also be isolated from ground potential.
What about external LED drivers?
External drivers like the Mean Well LED drivers, as opposed to the onboard drivers found in line voltage COBs, are almost always isolated from ground with their DC outputs. You can ideally take the positive or negative leads used to drive the LED(s) to ground and have no current flow. The danger from them would be at higher voltages and getting a shock from the positive to negative skin contact.
External LED drivers keep you off line voltage which is the compelling reason to use them for DIY use. The better ones are "UR" marked, with a reverse "UR", which means it has been tested for safety for a factory install component of an electrical device (as opposed to a UL marking for a field install of a complete electrical device although there are plenty of ANSI/UL 8750 listed LED drivers).
Good external drivers like by Mean Well can also have up to a five year warranty and the drivers usually fail before the LEDs do. You can forget about a warranty on cheap, generic Chinese made products.
It is a misnomer to say that most "driverless" COBs have no LED driver. The ones that I've examined have an on board constant current linear power supply as the driver. In the mid 2000's I was building 5mm LED grow lights (before high power LEDs were available) that were line voltage using an LM317 linear voltage regulator as a constant current source since the LM317 can float off ground which is why it can work directly off line voltage through a bridge rectifiecapacitor. That line voltage driver would be considered "driverless" in modern parlance. I don't do this anymore since LED drivers are now so cheap, common, reliable, and safe.
What's a safe voltage?
30-50 volts AC, 60-75 volts DC (or is it?)
The answer above was after researching various sources such as the National Electrical Code, peer reviewed engineering sources, European safety directives, and a whole lot of guessing from various potentially unreliable forums like Quora.
There has never been a known case of a person dying from a shock of 50 volts to ground or less outside welding equipment. expert source. There have been cases of <80 volt electrocution deaths. source
The US military considers 50 volts the maximum voltage one can work with without de-energizing the system. source
Article 725 of the National Electrical Code states that a class 1 power limited circuit may only be up to 30 volts AC or DC. source
The EU's extra-low voltage directive says 50 volts AC, but as high as 120 volts DC. source Or is it 30 volts RMS AC and 60 volts DC. source
A line phone system is a higher impedance 48 volts DC on-hook but 90 volts AC 20 Hz current limited when being rung. I've been mildly shocked off a phone system back when electricians sometimes worked on 66 blocks.
As a journeyman electrician (I've been out of the trade for awhile) I would hesitate to let a new 1st year apprentice work with energized 48 volts AC which you'll find with some low voltage transformers. If you're on a ladder and get a mild shock you can still fall from the ladder due to reacting to the shock. My ass would be complete toast if a 1st year apprentice got hurt like this.
AC is considered more dangerous than DC. This was determined experimentally in 1956 by CF Dalziel of the U of CA (Berkeley). source It can take perhaps five times the current in DC to have the same affect on the body as AC for electrical shocks. But this does not mean you can have five times higher DC voltage and be safe because of the non-linear dielectric break down problem.
This is another reason to use an external DC LED driver as the DC output of the LED driver is simply safer to work with than AC.
Even those 50 volt AC, 60-75 volt DC numbers above can be bit controversial. There's a good reason why lab power supplies typically do not go above 30 volts.
Modifying LED light bulbs
You can remove the white translucent case from an LED light bulb to directly expose the LEDs to the plant for roughly 50% more light. You are also now exposing yourself to potentially dangerous voltage levels that are not isolated from ground by removing this electrically insulative cover. That cover is part of the bulb's ingress protection and now you have none.
The removing the case trick is something I started doing back in about 2010(?) when LED light bulbs were just hitting the market. Back then you were paying about $25 for a light bulb that was much less efficient than CFLs. They were also using much higher quality LED drivers that were safer to use.
Today it is common to find capacitive power supplies that are not isolated from ground. You can have dangerously high voltage levels that can also have dangerously high current levels in a ground fault.
People need to be aware that a deadly condition can exist that if you were to grab the energized circuit board with one hand and your other hand is at ground potential that it is possible for a lethal amount of current to flow through your heart.
I've only seen a single example of people modifying LED light bulbs and also providing proper ingress protection by using a glass shield. I strongly encourage people who modify these bulbs to at least have some sort of clear plastic or glass shield covering the exposed line voltage circuit board.
Is GFCI/RCD going to save my life?
Yes.
Ground fault circuit interrupter, often called a residual current device, measures the current between the line (hot) and the neutral wires. If there is a current imbalance that means that there is a ground fault and the GFCI receptacle/circuit breaker will turn off typically at 5 mA (if you have a 220-240 volt system then it typically turns off at 10 mA). In an industrial environment GFCI circuit breakers frequently can be adjusted for the ground fault current trip point.
If you are growing in a garage then you need GFCI/RCD protection. Damp concrete floors are notorious for conducting electricity (pure water is an electrical insulator- it's the dissolved stuff in the water that makes it conduct electricity).
GFCI/RCD does not rely on the grounding wire to work and will work even if only the line and neutral wires are going to the receptacle. There is an input and an output to a GFCI receptacle- every receptacle that is wired to the output of a GFCI receptacle will also have GFCI protection even if they are not a GFCI receptacle.
If you do not have GFCI protection then you can always buy an adapter if you do not want to replace the receptacle.
It is really important to note that GFCI will not protect you from a hot to neutral electrical shock, only a line to ground shock.
Pro tip- both the grounding wire and the neutral wire are grounded conductors but only the third grounding wire is referred to as such (usually the green, yellow and green, or bare wire). The grounding wire is typically referred to as the ground wire or as "earth".
Is AFCI going to help keep my place from burning down?
Yes.
Arc-fault circuit interrupter (AFCI) is different than GFCI in that instead of detecting ground faults the circuit detects series and parallel electrical arcing. If you bought a newer place in the US/Canada then all of your commonly used circuits will have AFCI interrupters (except for maybe the bathroom because the bathroom is not considered a habitable room).
Series arcing can be from loose or corroded electrical connections and there may be a few hundred electrical connections on a home.
Parallel arcing is often from damaged wire insulation such as found in an electrical appliance power cord. The damaged insulation can allow the line voltage wire and the grounding or neutral wire to slowly come in contact with each other which can cause arcing.
An AFCI works by detecting high amounts of broad band electrical noise, or radio frequency interference, on the wires or electrical device caused by arcing. Many AFCI devices, particularly the earlier AFCI devices when they first came on the market, will also have a built in 30mA GFCI circuit. This higher 30mA current trip point is more to protect equipment rather than people.
regular circuit breaker- protects the wires and equipment from over loads and short circuits
GFCI- protects you from electrical shocks due to ground faults
AFCI- helps protects everything from fires
A circuit breaker that incorporates GFCI and AFCI will cost about $50.
Should I trust a non-contact voltage tester?
No- test it first.
As an electrician I always had a non-contact voltage tester on me but I've seen false negatives before with them. You must keep test them on a known live circuit.
I've also had a Wiggy solenoid voltage tester basically fly apart in my hand testing a 480 volt AC three phase circuit but this is a rarity and I do trust this type of voltage tester. You can test wires without looking at the tester.
BTW, some higher impedance multimeters can give false readings in some cases. A common test is a neutral to ground voltage test to insure that there is less than two (or one) volts from the neutral to ground. A lower impedance multimeter like a Fluke 117 can be used instead.
Why aren't more people dying from tasers/stun guns?
What kills people with electricity is the current path, amount of current, and the duration that the current is flowing.
Tasers/stuns guns reach about 40-50,000 volts, which is limited by the distance between the electrodes in the spark gap, and then quickly drops down closer to a few thousand volts when in skin contact. But these are short duration pulses of tens of microseconds making the average current fairly low.
Stun guns are not reaching "a million volts", or what ever, and claims like that are deceptive advertisement.
A cheap and safe five gallon COB grow light
30 watts of LEDs is more than enough to properly light up a five gallon space bucket with a high quality COB. A Vero 18 ran at 28 volts and one amp can drive the top of the plant canopy to about 1400 umol/m2/sec which is saturating a cannabis plant. Keep the light 6-8 inches above the plant or perhaps a little more.
Vero 18 gen 7 3500K 28 volt version
Lower cost Mean Well driver for Vero 18
Then you need a heat sink that is rated for 15 watts of heat (assuming that 30 watt COB is 50% electrically efficient) and material to mount the LED to the heat sink. This will outperform any cheap AC COB and is safe enough for the beginner.
Some of these YouTubers are being ridiculously unsafe!
A call out I'm going to do here is the Migro channel on YouTube and his complete disregard for electrical safety.
The video in question that I'm critiquing is this one on an AC driverless grow light.
You can see in the video that the grow light is not even being grounded. Any competent person skilled in the art should have given that grow light an instant fail and stopped the testing until the manufacturer spent ten cents to correct the problem. To reiterate, your safety is not even worth ten...fucking...cents to the person who designed this light. And this person is apparently not giving a damn here, either, judging how he is ignoring the safety warnings being given in the comment section.
And then he is grabbing the energized exposed line voltage device on the circuit board itself in his hand like it's nothing. This is profoundly reckless conduct that other people who are also very naive about electrical safety will emulate and why I'm so vocal about line voltage COBs and these very foolish people like this person who are so cavalier about electrical safety.
This person getting watts and joules confused in the video to the point I can't understand what he is trying to convey is one thing, his made up measurements like "PPFD per watt" don't make any sense at all nor does his odd "159 PAR claim" (is that 159 watts/m2 of PAR? I've been rightly called out in an academic setting by a full professor for saying "micro moles" instead of "micro moles per square meter per second" and the correct terminology should be used), it just shows that he lacks some very basic understanding on the subject matter that he is presenting himself to be an authority on. But the lack of basic electrical safety practices should be utterly condemned.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: IF YOU ARE GOING TO PLAY THE ROLE OF TEACHER THEN YOU HAVE AN ETHICAL DUTY TO PUT OUT ACCURATE AND SAFE INFORMATION WHILE SHOWING SAFE PRACTICES. PERIOD.
Anyone can look like they know what they talking about to a layman on YouTube by waving a light meter under a light. Plenty of people on YouTube do it, and Migro is actually better than most, but watch out for people trying to sell something or if they are receiving free stuff. People who are receiving free stuff often will never do a negative review.
BTW, I've never seen anything remotely close to a legit side by side grow test on YouTube and take them all with a big lump of salt. The plants need the exact same conditions and your population number needs to be at least nine for a basic test (power=0.8, FDR=0.05) or 20 for a more accurate test (power=0.8, FDR=0.01) or 75 for a larger field test (power=0.9, FDR=0.01).
Driverless line voltage COBs are the now and the future
At the end of the day the wallet talks and AC driverless COBs are going to become more popular. There is going to come a time where a 100 watt driverless COB that is 80-90% electrically efficient (an efficacy of above 3 umol/joule) is going to cost around $5 for the COB itself. It is inevitable.
But these cheap ass COBs are still going to be cutting corners particularly in the on board driver itself and it is usually the driver that gives out rather than the LEDs.
So the danger is going to increase as these DIY "suicide lights" become more common. This type of work should be rejected for the DIY hobby community and people encouraged to use external LED drivers that are much safer for the beginner to use which will isolate you off ground from potentially deadly shock hazards. As mentioned above, DC is safer than AC.
In conclusion
I understand that many people want to go as cheap as possible on their lighting but there is a point where you need to put a price on your own safety. What's it worth to you?
If you want to be unsafe yourself then all I can say is do it before you breed and have at it. But most people simply are not going to understand the dangers particularly when most people online have never even heard of the dielectric breakdown of the skin issue and higher voltages.
Just say no to DIY AC driverless "suicide lights" and use a proper external LED driver with a high quality COB instead. If you post about them on /SpaceBuckets I'll respond if you need help but my no PM policy for helping people build their own grow lights unfortunately needs to stay in place due to the amount of people who were asking for help and the time involved.
So, in conclusion....your wife is cheating on you, your mother is lying when she says she loves you, your children view you as a meal ticket, your dog secretly wants to move in with your next door neighbor, your cat just threw up on your bed (again), nobody on Reddit likes you, but SAG actually cares.
Just say no to DIY driverless AC COB "suicide" lights.
A few sources
Ohm's Law Calculator
Big Clive on YouTube. I believe Big Clive is a lineman (a type of electrician) and he does a lot of testing of cheap Chinese electrical devices as well as discussing electricity in general.
Electroboom on YouTube. Mehdi Sadaghar is an electrical engineer that talks about electrical safety with his own brand of humor thrown in.
Dave Jones and EEVlog is the best electrical engineering forum on the Internet. His videos on free energy and solar road ways are funny with how frustrated he can get with people's rubbish.
Mike Holt electrical forum. This is a great resource for electricians.
A COMPLETE ELECTRICAL HAZARD CLASSIFICATION SYSTEM AND ITS APPLICATION This in an industry wide paper on electrical safety.
EFFECTS OF ELECTRICAL SHOCK ON MAN Dalziel (1956). This is an earlier very complete study on electrical shocks. It has a bunch of pictures of people getting electrical shocks for science, which is nice.
COMBINATION AFCIs: WHAT THEY WILL AND WILL NOT DO This is a really interesting paper on the development of AFCI that also get a bit in to the politics of the NEMA and UL.
What's in your socket? This is a good UK study on the safety of electrical sockets.
submitted by SuperAngryGuy to SpaceBuckets [link] [comments]

line voltage COBs and electrical safety

Part of SAG's lighting guide. Please let me know if you spot any mistakes so I can quickly correct them. I am asking /ElectricalEngineering to review this thread.
This is also be archived in my own subreddit here.
The best 3 minute video on electrical safety on the Internet.
Why I'm writing this
This is written in response to people using or wanting to make DIY line voltage AC driverless COB "suicide lights" and a discussion on electrical safety in general.
This is also a very strong critique of a few people not taking line voltage electrical safety seriously. I've seen naive people telling others that line voltage is not dangerous and people like this should be condemned. I've also seen "experts" who are not. People who use a faulty appeal to authority are a particular danger and an example will be articulated below.
It only takes a single mistake to have a life altering injury from line voltage.
The problem
People have posted about their line voltage COB lights before on /SpaceBuckets and literally wondered why their heat sink is being energized. I don't know but it only takes a single strand of loose wire to energize a conductor like a heat sink or there could be some some sort of internal fault in the COB packaging with your heat sink that has no grounding. These line voltage COBs are being made as cheaply as possible and you can expect corners to be cut. They are electrically inefficient compared to name brand COBs and tend to have a shorter life span.
Even in my testing of a commercial line voltage COB light I found that they can be unsafe. Why in this case? Because the manufacturer snipped off the grounding wire. The son of a bitch was so cheap that they would not spend ten cents to actually do a proper ground bond in a light fixture with a metal housing. And this was a light being advertised for outdoor use and advertised as water proof. Electricians just looooove metal fixtures that have no grounding. /s in case it was not obvious and an electrician starts swinging a pipe bender around.
Just because you can find it on Amazon does not mean that the electrical device is safe. In US/Canada at least Walmart, Home Depot and the like will only sell stuff that is UL/ETL/CSA listed for safety because they understand lawsuits from selling dangerous devices. Good luck trying to bring legal action against a Chinese importer for an injury or death. CE is not recognized in North America, only nationally recognized testing labs are. I absolutely do not trust a CE mark and below you will see why.
Just because it is sold on Amazon does not mean it's safe. It is quite likely that a COB light from Walmart and the like are safely grounded and should be safe as long as they are not modified.
Cavalier attitudes and electrical safety
To those who say and tell others online that line voltage is not dangerous- would you strip back a line wire and a neutral wire, because “it's not dangerous, lol”, energize the line wire and hold it in one hand, because “it's not dangerous, lol”, and with your other hand grab on to the neutral wire? How about grabbing those wires really tight and then get back to me.
Grab on to that energized line wire with your hand wet from hydroponic solution and stand barefoot on a damp basement concrete floor because “it's not dangerous, lol”.
If you are not willing to do the above then you need to start reflecting on what you are telling people online that line voltage is not dangerous assuming you have a certain level of self-awareness. I know a person who did accidental grab the energized line wire while barefoot on a damp concrete floor with a hydroponic setup. Did it kill her? No, it just dropped her ass and she learned real quick (she also did not have GFCI protection). As an electrician I've got all sorts of these anecdotes. I know a person who became part of a neutral wire in series and ended up with nerve damage from the electrical shock.
But...but...but...I got shocked once and it didn't kill me! (I had a person use this argument once) Well, I've been in a car accident once and it didn't kill me either. It does not mean that car accidents are not dangerous. And it's arrogant to think that your one experience applies to everyone else.
But...but...but...in my country! I honestly don't care how things are done in your country and standards are not going to be lowered for everyone else because "that's the way we do things in my country". That is complete non-sense. If I write about electrical safety in my country while proclaiming expert status in the field, which I do to an extent I can claim that status as an industrial electrician, I also assume certain liabilities and will not hesitate to go before a judge if it came down to that. Will the anonymous person telling you that these line voltage COBs are not dangerous be willing to do the same? Talk is cheap and your safety should not be.
Faulty appeal to authority
When people discuss electrical safety in particular it's never a bad idea to do a call out and question what their credentials are. An "engineer" is not a professional electrical expert when they are a software engineer, as an example, and is a faulty appeal to authority when they do not understand the subject matter.
A person on /SpaceBuckets was once claiming to be an "engineer", messed up a guide on Ohm's Law including a simple problem example because he did not actually understand the material (the LED has a voltage drop, yo), didn't understand how LEDs work (I run LEDs constant voltage without a resistor all the time on a lab power supply when testing them and they have a specific I-V curve. You also can not model an LED as a resistor. And the actual internal resistance of an LED is so low it's usually not considered in almost all circuits), and stated that he was going to be doing a write up on electrical safety. In the comments section he revealed that he was a software engineer rather than an electrical/electronics engineer. This is misleading rubbish because when you talk about electronics and claim to be an engineer people are assuming a type of engineer.
And the "engineer" said he was going to be writing an electrical safety guide....there is a good reason I won't hesitate to do a call out. Why would a layman who does not know the material write a guide about electrical safety when bad information can get people injured or killed? It's stuff like this where I live up to my user name.
When people discuss electrical safety it's never a bad idea to question their credentials. The sources of my information are coming from electrical engineers along with my training as an electrician and not some anonymous person on the Internet with no established history. I do strongly encourage more professional electrical engineers and electricians to bring up electrical safety when dealing with the layman.
Ohm's Law and how almost everyone is measuring body resistance wrong
An argument I've seen is one can take a multimeter, grab the probes, and measure their hand to hand resistance. Hey, I'm reading 100,000 ohms so I can not have a dangerous level of current flowing through me! But that is not how body resistance actually works at higher voltages or how insulation is tested. For that you do a dielectric withstand test and measure the resistance of the body or insulation under test closer to the voltage where the wires or your body will be at with line voltage or at higher voltages.
Electricians/field engineers/some technicians may use a special tool called a “high pot tester” or “high potential tester” where potential means voltage. If you are an electrician you may know them by a trade name of Megger and you may “meg out the wires”. An example of where I did extensive megging was in parking lot lighting with splices directly in water. There was also lots and lots of megging going on when I spent three months rebuilding the Seattle Monorail trains in 1998 as a newer journeyman (that was a surprisingly complex 700 volt DC four speed electromechanical motor control system fused at 10,000 amps).
You need to measure an insulator, like human skin, at a higher voltage to take in to account dielectric breakdown and dielectric breakdown of skin/tissue is a non-linear process as it is with any other insulator. Just because you measure that 100K ohms hand to hand at one volt on your multimeter does not mean it's still going to be at 100K ohms at 230 volts, as an example, because the higher voltage is able to punch through the insulation which is going to change the resistance hand to hand. The amount of time being shocked can also affect dielectric breakdown conditions and the amount of current flow.
Once dielectric breakdown occurs the resistance can be as low as 500 ohms and possibly lower. At 200 volts, for example, you just went from 2 mA which is a very mild shock to perhaps >400 mA which is deadly if the current path goes through the heart. Are you always going to get a complete dielectric breakdown at this 200 volts example? No. Should you treat electricity with enough respect knowing that you can have such a dielectric breakdown? Yeah, you should particularly if you understand ventricular fibrillation.
What makes line voltage so dangerous is that there is a very low electrical system impedance. If you do not understand the previous sentence then you have no business working line voltage. Current is what kills but the voltage drives the current as per Ohm's Law. And the resistance can change by voltage levels.
One way I can instantly tell if someone understands electrical safety is if they do or do not understand the dielectric breakdown of the skin issue at different voltage levels and understanding that it is a non-linear problem. People saying that you can just measure skin resistance with a multimeter, which may output only a few volts for a resistance test, and apply that to line voltage electrical safety do not know what they are talking about and should be ignored as a source for electrical safety information. I see this all over the Internet.
Ingress protection
Ingress protection has to do with the mechanical protection of the electrical device. Less ingress protection may mean you can't stick your finger on energized parts. Really high ingress protection will be water proof.
A line voltage COB with the line wire exposed has no ingress protection. That means that it is unsafe. Period. If you do not understand ingress protection then you have no business as a beginner building line voltage electrical devices like line voltage COB lights.
Kapton tape is not line voltage ingress protection for our purposes. I've seen people posting pics of line voltage COBs with Kapton tape as their "ingress protection". Just no.
But...but...but...what if I make the DIY line voltage COB safe with good ingress protection? You are still showing off something that is inherently dangerous to make which other people will follow. Is their AC line voltage COB setup also safe? There comes a point where a line needs to be drawn in the sand.
Good ingress protection means on a practical level that you would let a two year old toddler play with the energized device unattended without risk of electrical injury. I'm not saying that you should do this, and it does depend on the electrical device of course, but that is the practical standard that you should be going for.
Remember that electrical codes and safety guidelines are typically written in blood.
Soldering and line voltage
I can look back at the quality of the soldering I was doing from +20 years ago and cringe at those circuit boards. Sloppy with cold solder joints partially from using a $5 Radio Shack soldering iron that was not temperature controlled. If you have no experience with soldering then you should gain some experience with something that is not a safety risk like a line voltage COB. There are soldering practice kits made with the absolute beginner in mind.
Cold solder joints in particular are problematic because they may work for awhile before failing. If I want to troubleshoot a circuit board the first thing I do is check for power then I'm looking around for cold solder joints (the third thing is check the capacitors). I have seen wires with cold solder joints pop off of circuit boards. The last thing you want with a line voltage COB is your wires popping off and dangling around.
BTW, if you have issues with solder balling up then you may want to try using an eutectic 63/37 solder instead of more common 60/40 solder beyond proper use of solder flux (you don't always need solder flux since there is already flux in most common electrical solders. For surface mount soldering you probably should use solder flux).
I have seen cold solder joints more than once before when people have posted pics on /SpaceBuckets of their line voltage COB light.
The two hurdles for beginners getting in to electronics are learning how to solder and learning while also intuitively understanding Ohm's Law. There are good temperature controlled soldering irons in the $30 range but I've used a Weller WTCPT for 15 years now without problems with the tips lasing for many thousands of solder joints. I've seen cheap tips give out after a few hundred.
What about lights that plug in to a light socket? They have no ground.
E26/27 light bulbs and the like have no ground since they use a two conductor lighting socket. They are supposed to have an insulation rating to ensure that there is no electrical shock hazard. Remove the cover of a light bulb to get more light on your plants and you just removed the protection. The line voltage circuit board found in LED light bulbs are not isolated from ground and there can be well over 100 volts exposed.
Even then I have found lights that failed my own safety inspections. A test that I do is to reverse the polarity of the line wire and the neutral wire since reverse polarity is a common problem with receptacles particularly in residential environments where the layman is more likely to do their own electrical work. You can buy a receptacle tester to make sure this does not happen or to test your own house.
Here is a light bulb I bought off Amazon that is on reverse polarity with the light switch turned to the off position. Notice how by merely touching the heat sink how I can get the LEDs to light up dimly. This is because there is an AC electrical fault somewhere and illustrates how these cheap no-name Chinese light bulbs can still be problematic when plugged in. In no way should this ever happen and the cheap bulb can light up like this due to body capacitance.
That bulb also has a CE mark on it, with exposed line voltage electrical, which is why I think the CE self-certification program is non-sense when misused like this. An engineering joke is that CE really stands for "China export" rather than "Conformité Européene" ("European Conformity") and a CE marking does not indicate that a product have been approved as safe by the EU or by another authority. CE usually does not need to be tested by a third party for safety. Here's a UK study on CE mark with an important point of "Whilst we are pleased to report that all of the branded chargers passed the conformity tests, not one of the unbranded chargers were considered to be safe, yet all carried the CE mark."
With that same bulb I can hook up line voltage to the heat sink and get those LEDs to light much brighter. In no way should this ever happen that the LEDs light up since the metal heat sink is supposed to be completely isolated.
An issue with some LED light bulbs that have a heavy heat sink is that this puts extra stress on the base itself and I've had numerous instances of the base breaking. This is very unlikely to happen with small LED light bulbs from Walmart etc but could be a major fail for some of these larger LED lights that simply plug in to a light socket particularly if they are not vertical.
Amazon is selling cheap and dangerous lights. And the CE mark is utter non-sense when it is so easily misused from products out of China.
But my phone charger does not have a ground.
Your phone charger is in a plastic case and is double insulated so does not need a ground. There literally is nothing to ground. Look for the square inside a square for a double insulation mark. The output should also be isolated from ground potential.
What about external LED drivers?
External drivers like the Mean Well LED drivers, as opposed to the onboard drivers found in line voltage COBs, are almost always isolated from ground with their DC outputs. You can ideally take the positive or negative leads used to drive the LED(s) to ground and have no current flow. The danger from them would be at higher voltages and getting a shock from the positive to negative skin contact.
External LED drivers keep you off line voltage which is the compelling reason to use them for DIY use. The better ones are "UR" marked, with a reverse "UR", which means it has been tested for safety for a factory install component of an electrical device (as opposed to a UL marking for a field install of a complete electrical device although there are plenty of ANSI/UL 8750 listed LED drivers).
Good external drivers like by Mean Well can also have up to a five year warranty and the drivers usually fail before the LEDs do. You can forget about a warranty on cheap, generic Chinese made products.
It is a misnomer to say that most "driverless" COBs have no LED driver. The ones that I've examined have an on board constant current linear power supply as the driver. In the mid 2000's I was building 5mm LED grow lights (before high power LEDs were available) that were line voltage using an LM317 linear voltage regulator as a constant current source since the LM317 can float off ground which is why it can work directly off line voltage through a bridge rectifiecapacitor. That line voltage driver would be considered "driverless" in modern parlance. I don't do this anymore since LED drivers are now so cheap, common, reliable, and safe.
What's a safe voltage?
30-50 volts AC, 60-75 volts DC (or is it?)
The answer above was after researching various sources such as the National Electrical Code, peer reviewed engineering sources, European safety directives, and a whole lot of guessing from various potentially unreliable forums like Quora.
There has never been a known case of a person dying from a shock of 50 volts to ground or less outside welding equipment. expert source. There have been cases of <80 volt electrocution deaths. source
The US military considers 50 volts the maximum voltage one can work with without de-energizing the system. source
Article 725 of the National Electrical Code states that a class 1 power limited circuit may only be up to 30 volts AC or DC. source
The EU's extra-low voltage directive says 50 volts AC, but as high as 120 volts DC. source Or is it 30 volts RMS AC and 60 volts DC. source
A line phone system is a higher impedance 48 volts DC on-hook but 90 volts AC 20 Hz current limited when being rung. I've been mildly shocked off a phone system back when electricians sometimes worked on 66 blocks.
As a journeyman electrician (I've been out of the trade for awhile) I would hesitate to let a new 1st year apprentice work with energized 48 volts AC which you'll find with some low voltage transformers. If you're on a ladder and get a mild shock you can still fall from the ladder due to reacting to the shock. My ass would be complete toast if a 1st year apprentice got hurt like this.
AC is considered more dangerous than DC. This was determined experimentally in 1956 by CF Dalziel of the U of CA (Berkeley). source It can take perhaps five times the current in DC to have the same affect on the body as AC for electrical shocks. But this does not mean you can have five times higher DC voltage and be safe because of the non-linear dielectric break down problem.
This is another reason to use an external DC LED driver as the DC output of the LED driver is simply safer to work with than AC.
Even those 50 volt AC, 60-75 volt DC numbers above can be bit controversial. There's a good reason why lab power supplies typically do not go above 30 volts.
Modifying LED light bulbs
You can remove the white translucent case from an LED light bulb to directly expose the LEDs to the plant for roughly 50% more light. You are also now exposing yourself to potentially dangerous voltage levels that are not isolated from ground by removing this electrically insulative cover. That cover is part of the bulb's ingress protection and now you have none.
The removing the case trick is something I started doing back in about 2010(?) when LED light bulbs were just hitting the market. Back then you were paying about $25 for a light bulb that was much less efficient than CFLs. They were also using much higher quality LED drivers that were safer to use.
Today it is common to find capacitive power supplies that are not isolated from ground. You can have dangerously high voltage levels that can also have dangerously high current levels in a ground fault.
People need to be aware that a deadly condition can exist that if you were to grab the energized circuit board with one hand and your other hand is at ground potential that it is possible for a lethal amount of current to flow through your heart.
I've only seen a single example of people modifying LED light bulbs and also providing proper ingress protection by using a glass shield. I strongly encourage people who modify these bulbs to at least have some sort of clear plastic or glass shield covering the exposed line voltage circuit board.
Is GFCI/RCD going to save my life?
Yes.
Ground fault circuit interrupter, often called a residual current device, measures the current between the line (hot) and the neutral wires. If there is a current imbalance that means that there is a ground fault and the GFCI receptacle/circuit breaker will turn off typically at 5 mA (if you have a 220-240 volt system then it typically turns off at 10 mA). In an industrial environment GFCI circuit breakers frequently can be adjusted for the ground fault current trip point.
If you are growing in a garage then you need GFCI/RCD protection. Damp concrete floors are notorious for conducting electricity (pure water is an electrical insulator- it's the dissolved stuff in the water that makes it conduct electricity).
GFCI/RCD does not rely on the grounding wire to work and will work even if only the line and neutral wires are going to the receptacle. There is an input and an output to a GFCI receptacle- every receptacle that is wired to the output of a GFCI receptacle will also have GFCI protection even if they are not a GFCI receptacle.
If you do not have GFCI protection then you can always buy an adapter if you do not want to replace the receptacle.
It is really important to note that GFCI will not protect you from a hot to neutral electrical shock, only a line to ground shock.
Pro tip- both the grounding wire and the neutral wire are grounded conductors but only the third grounding wire is referred to as such (usually the green, yellow and green, or bare wire). The grounding wire is typically referred to as the ground wire or as "earth".
Is AFCI going to help keep my place from burning down?
Yes.
Arc-fault circuit interrupter (AFCI) is different than GFCI in that instead of detecting ground faults the circuit detects series and parallel electrical arcing. If you bought a newer place in the US/Canada then all of your commonly used circuits will have AFCI interrupters (except for maybe the bathroom because the bathroom is not considered a habitable room).
Series arcing can be from loose or corroded electrical connections and there may be a few hundred electrical connections on a home.
Parallel arcing is often from damaged wire insulation such as found in an electrical appliance power cord. The damaged insulation can allow the line voltage wire and the grounding or neutral wire to slowly come in contact with each other which can cause arcing.
An AFCI works by detecting high amounts of broad band electrical noise, or radio frequency interference, on the wires or electrical device caused by arcing. Many AFCI devices, particularly the earlier AFCI devices when they first came on the market, will also have a built in 30mA GFCI circuit. This higher 30mA current trip point is more to protect equipment rather than people.
regular circuit breaker- protects the wires and equipment from over loads and short circuits
GFCI- protects you from electrical shocks due to ground faults
AFCI- helps protects everything from fires
A circuit breaker that incorporates GFCI and AFCI will cost about $50.
Should I trust a non-contact voltage tester?
No- test it first.
As an electrician I always had a non-contact voltage tester on me but I've seen false negatives before with them. You must keep test them on a known live circuit.
I've also had a Wiggy solenoid voltage tester basically fly apart in my hand testing a 480 volt AC three phase circuit but this is a rarity and I do trust this type of voltage tester. You can test wires without looking at the tester.
BTW, some higher impedance multimeters can give false readings in some cases. A common test is a neutral to ground voltage test to insure that there is less than two (or one) volts from the neutral to ground. A lower impedance multimeter like a Fluke 117 can be used instead.
Why aren't more people dying from tasers/stun guns?
What kills people with electricity is the current path, amount of current, and the duration that the current is flowing.
Tasers/stuns guns reach about 40-50,000 volts, which is limited by the distance between the electrodes in the spark gap, and then quickly drops down closer to a few thousand volts when in skin contact. But these are short duration pulses of tens of microseconds making the average current fairly low.
Stun guns are not reaching "a million volts", or what ever, and claims like that are deceptive advertisement.
A cheap and safe five gallon COB grow light
30 watts of LEDs is more than enough to properly light up a five gallon space bucket with a high quality COB. A Vero 18 ran at 28 volts and one amp can drive the top of the plant canopy to about 1400 umol/m2/sec which is saturating a cannabis plant. Keep the light 6-8 inches above the plant or perhaps a little more.
Vero 18 gen 7 3500K 28 volt version
Lower cost Mean Well driver for Vero 18
Then you need a heat sink that is rated for 15 watts of heat (assuming that 30 watt COB is 50% electrically efficient) and material to mount the LED to the heat sink. This will outperform any cheap AC COB and is safe enough for the beginner.
Some of these YouTubers are being ridiculously unsafe!
A call out I'm going to do here is the Migro channel on YouTube and his complete disregard for electrical safety.
The video in question that I'm critiquing is this one on an AC driverless grow light.
You can see in the video that the grow light is not even being grounded. Any competent person skilled in the art should have given that grow light an instant fail and stopped the testing until the manufacturer spent ten cents to correct the problem. To reiterate, your safety is not even worth ten...fucking...cents to the person who designed this light. And this person is apparently not giving a damn here, either, judging how he is ignoring the safety warnings being given in the comment section.
And then he is grabbing the energized exposed line voltage device on the circuit board itself in his hand like it's nothing. This is profoundly reckless conduct that other people who are also very naive about electrical safety will emulate and why I'm so vocal about line voltage COBs and these very foolish people like this person who are so cavalier about electrical safety.
This person getting watts and joules confused in the video to the point I can't understand what he is trying to convey is one thing, his made up measurements like "PPFD per watt" don't make any sense at all nor does his odd "159 PAR claim" (is that 159 watts/m2 of PAR? I've been rightly called out in an academic setting by a full professor for saying "micro moles" instead of "micro moles per square meter per second" and the correct terminology should be used), it just shows that he lacks some very basic understanding on the subject matter that he is presenting himself to be an authority on. But the lack of basic electrical safety practices should be utterly condemned.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: IF YOU ARE GOING TO PLAY THE ROLE OF TEACHER THEN YOU HAVE AN ETHICAL DUTY TO PUT OUT ACCURATE AND SAFE INFORMATION WHILE SHOWING SAFE PRACTICES. PERIOD.
Anyone can look like they know what they talking about to a layman on YouTube by waving a light meter under a light. Plenty of people on YouTube do it, and Migro is actually better than most, but watch out for people trying to sell something or if they are receiving free stuff. People who are receiving free stuff often will never do a negative review.
BTW, I've never seen anything remotely close to a legit side by side grow test on YouTube and take them all with a big lump of salt. The plants need the exact same conditions and your population number needs to be at least nine for a basic test (power=0.8, P<0.05) or 20 for a more accurate test (power=0.8, P<0.01) or 75 for a larger field test (power=0.9, P<0.01).
Driverless line voltage COBs are the now and the future
At the end of the day the wallet talks and AC driverless COBs are going to become more popular. There is going to come a time where a 100 watt driverless COB that is 80-90% electrically efficient (an efficacy of above 3 umol/joule) is going to cost around $5 for the COB itself. It is inevitable.
But these cheap ass COBs are still going to be cutting corners particularly in the on board driver itself and it is usually the driver that gives out rather than the LEDs.
So the danger is going to increase as these DIY "suicide lights" become more common. This type of work should be rejected for the DIY hobby community and people encouraged to use external LED drivers that are much safer for the beginner to use which will isolate you off ground from potentially deadly shock hazards. As mentioned above, DC is safer than AC.
In conclusion
I understand that many people want to go as cheap as possible on their lighting but there is a point where you need to put a price on your own safety. What's it worth to you?
If you want to be unsafe yourself then all I can say is do it before you breed and have at it. But most people simply are not going to understand the dangers particularly when most people online have never even heard of the dielectric breakdown of the skin issue and higher voltages.
Just say no to DIY AC driverless "suicide lights" and use a proper external LED driver with a high quality COB instead. If you post about them on /SpaceBuckets I'll respond if you need help but my no PM policy for helping people build their own grow lights unfortunately needs to stay in place due to the amount of people who were asking for help and the time involved.
So, in conclusion....your wife is cheating on you, your mother is lying when she says she loves you, your children view you as a meal ticket, your dog secretly wants to move in with your next door neighbor, your cat just threw up on your bed (again), nobody on Reddit likes you, but SAG actually cares.
Just say no to DIY driverless AC COB "suicide" lights.
A few sources
Ohm's Law Calculator
Big Clive on YouTube. I believe Big Clive is a lineman (a type of electrician) and he does a lot of testing of cheap Chinese electrical devices as well as discussing electricity in general.
Electroboom on YouTube. Mehdi Sadaghar is an electrical engineer that talks about electrical safety with his own brand of humor thrown in.
Dave Jones and EEVlog is the best electrical engineering forum on the Internet. His videos on free energy and solar road ways are funny with how frustrated he can get with people's rubbish.
Mike Holt electrical forum. This is a great resource for electricians.
A COMPLETE ELECTRICAL HAZARD CLASSIFICATION SYSTEM AND ITS APPLICATION This in an industry wide paper on electrical safety.
EFFECTS OF ELECTRICAL SHOCK ON MAN Dalziel (1956). This is an earlier very complete study on electrical shocks. It has a bunch of pictures of people getting electrical shocks for science, which is nice.
COMBINATION AFCIs: WHAT THEY WILL AND WILL NOT DO This is a really interesting paper on the development of AFCI that also get a bit in to the politics of the NEMA and UL.
What's in your socket? This is a good UK study on the safety of electrical sockets.
submitted by SuperAngryGuy to HandsOnComplexity [link] [comments]

"All the pay but none of the say" argument against EEA/EFTA option ignores roles of TPRs in formulating Single Market legislation

There is a lack of transparency from Brussels in declaring the international origin of its rules and regulations. For example, in September 2013 the EU released Regulation (EU) No 1169/2011 (https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2011:304:0018:0063:EN:PDF) which prohibited the use of the EU flags on retail packets of meat. If research is carried out further on the subject, you find that this rule actually comes from Codex Stan 1-1985 (http://www.fao.org/input/download/standards/32/CXS_001e.pdf). Portions of the Codex standard were copy and pasted into the EU Regulation. Further, the legal base of this standard was the WTO Agreement on Rules of Origin. Yet, the EU Regulation does not once mention this. This is what I meant above by "lack of transparency". Another example would be the "Plant Reproductive Material Law"--originating, but not exclusively, from OECD rules, regulations and guidelines. Another one would be Council Directive 2001/113/EC (https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32001L0113&amp;amp;amp;from=en) relating to fruit jams, jellies and marmalades. The originator of this one is Codex again through Stan 79-1981 (http://www.fao.org/input/download/standards/11254/CXS_296e.pdf).
The "three sisters" recognised by the WTO Sanitary and Phytosanitary Agreement (SPS) are the Codex Commission, the International Plant Protection Convention and the Office INTERNATIONAL des Epizooties. They are the de-facto bodies which set the regulations for trade in animals and animal products throughout the world. The three organisations work intimately in setting their standards, particularly through the Animal Production Food Safety Working Group (https://www.oie.int/doc/ged/D3658.PDF).
On the other hand, it would be unfair to not mention sector-specific organisations. For example, the transboundary movements of hazardous waste (Council Decision 93/98/EEC/Regulation (EC) No 1013/2006) actually originated from the Basel Convention. The Convention was adopted by the EU in 1992. Another one would be the Globally Harmonised System of Classification and Labelling of Chemicals (GHS) by the UNCED--now adopted as EU law (Regulation (EC) No 1272/2008) (https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:32008R1272&amp;amp;amp;from=EN).
These international standards are not voluntary, either. The WTO Technical Barriers to Trade Agreement (TBT)--ratified by the EU in 1994--states that members shall (apart from scientifically justifiable exemptions) use relevant international standards in preference to their own (Article 2.4). The Sanitary and Phytosanitary Agreement (SPS) (Article 3) says the same. International standards-setting bodies, like Codex, have legislative primacy to the EU. This is what I like to call the conveyor belt of globalisation. Globalisation is not optional for a first-world industrial country in the long run--it is an unstoppable, inevitable force. This is also why the Norway "all the pay, not none of the say" argument is not correct--Norway has an input in the conception and formation of these 'soft laws'. EU membership is less relevant on this conveyor belt of soft law.
Standards for goods and services underpin the integrity of the Single Market, but most people do not fully understand the generators of these standards. You have national standards organisations like the British Standards Institute (UK) and Standard Norge (Norway) which approve standards for machines, equipment, chemicals and other products and own the copyright to publishing their respective national standards. These national standards organisations negotiate with each other to form harmonised standards and then, finally, international standards which are incorporated into the Single Market acquis. National standards organisations also represent their countries at the European Committee for Standardisation (CEN) and International Organisation for Standardisation (ISO). ISO is the organisation which, according to itself, ensures that goods and services are safe, reliable and good quality--this is also helps harmonise and facilitate trade between countries, not just within the Single Market but globally too.
Standard Norge is a member of the CEN and ISO and is responsible for Norwegian influence of European and global standardisation work in all areas except telecommunications and electrotechnicals. Over 2,000 experts in Norway from the business community, police authorities and and employee and consumer organisations participate in this standardisation work. They spend around £20M a year doing this work (https://www.iso.org/membe1994.html). ISO--based in Geneva outside the European Union--is comprised of over 3,000 technical bodies and is described as a Transnational Private Regulator (TPR) which has published over 20,000 standards (technology, business, food safety, computers, agriculture, healthcare, etc.) since its conception. The members of ISO meet once a year at the General Assembly to coordinate their strategic objectives. According to ISO, "ISO International Standards impact everyone, everywhere" (https://www.iso.org/about-us.html).
ISO international standards are what drive European standards created by the three European Standards Organisations (ESOs): CEN (which we mentioned above), CENELEC and ETSI. The standards community has just as significant an impact from Norway as it does from any other EU member state in developing Single Market standards. Here's an example of this system in action.
In 2014, the EU brought in a requirement for CE marking of steel construction products under the Construction Products Regulation (https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2011:088:0005:0043:EN:PDF). If you look into the recitals, this regulation actually came from CEN Eurocodes (see: Recital 18). This standard was developed in conjunction with the ISO, giving them a global application. If we look to the Vienna Agreement of 1991, the EU through CEN recognised the primacy of International Standards (through ISO) to its own (see WTO Code of Conduct). It is committed to co-ordinating its own standards with those of ISO. This establishes a hierarchical dominance of ISO--rendering the EU subordinate to it. Since Norway is a member of the ISO, it is incorrect to claim it "has no say" when, in fact, quite the opposite is true--Norway is sat at the top of the food chain. (https://boss.cen.eu/ref/Vienna_Agreement.pdf)
Electrotechnical standards are driven primarily by the International Electrotechnical Commission, which CENELEC co-operates with through the Frankfurt Agreement--a new agreement signed recently in 2016 (ftp://ftp.cencenelec.eu/CENELEC/Guides/CLC/13_CENELECGuide13.pdf). It re-iterates the hierarchical principle I outlined earlier:
...this new agreement preserves the spirit and approach conveyed by the Dresden Agreement, in particular the strategic commitment of CENELEC to supporting the primacy of international standardization. It includes several update aiming to simplify the parallel voting processes, and increases the traceability of international standards adopted in Europe thanks to a new referencing system. (https://www.cenelec.eu/aboutcenelec/whoweare/globalpartners/iec.html)
If CENELEC wants to create a new standard in Europe, it first has to go to the IEC (usually) and offer what is called a New Work Item. The IEC can then choose whether to accept the standard or reject it to be scrapped or modified by CENELEC and then re-introduced at a public enquiry stage. Sometimes, a standard may not be submitted but it must be justified--the Frankfurt Agreement, however, strongly recommends the NWI to be offered. The EFTA Secretariat can also submit an NWI to IEC--again, the "all the pay, none of the say" argument is incorrect. (https://boss.cenelec.eu/homegrowndeliverables/propnewwork/Pages/default.aspx). If the NWI is accepted, a process called parallel voting takes place. If the outcome is positive, CENELEC ratifies the standard and IEC publishes the international standard. This system provides more evidence for the workings of the TBT Agreement.
EU legislative monopoly is a myth.
Norwegian Foreign Minister Ine Eriksen Søreide: "Even though Norway is not a member of the EU",” she said, "we will be active participants rather than passive observers", in trying to influence EU policy. (http://www.newsinenglish.no/2018/05/11/norway-first-in-new-eu-strategy/) (https://www.regjeringen.no/globalassets/departementene/ud/dokumenteeu/eu_strategy.pdf)
Two Europe-wide regional bodies are the Council of Europe and the United Nations Economic Commission Europe. The former is more of a stand-alone international cul-de-sac group but UNECE is a hierarchical entity as one of five UN regional commissions, it is based in Geneva outside of the European Union and reports to the UN Economic and Social Council (ECOSOC). UNECE consists of 56 members including most of Europe, the USA, central Asia, Canada and Israel and its job is to nurture economic integration between its members.
UNECE is essentially the originator of all technical standards to do with transport (docks, railways and road networks) within the Single Market (http://www.unece.org/leginsttrans.html). UNECE and the United Nations Environment Program (UNEP) are responsible for pollution and climate change issues and hosts five conventions spanning from transboundary air pollution to the Aarhus Convention (http://www.unece.org/env/welcome.html). UNECE is also the originator of agricultural quality standards (http://www.unece.org/housing-and-land-management/about-us/working-group-on-a-possible-framework-convention-on-sustainable-housing.html) and (http://www.unece.org/leginstagri.html). UNECE is a key developer of the global harmonised system (GHS) for the classification and labelling of chemicals (http://www.unece.org/trans/dangepubli/ghs/ghs_welcome_e.html).
UNECE is also essentially the originator of vehicle safety and environmental impact (air and water pollution) standards via the UNECE Transport Division, which provides a Secretariat for the World Forum for the Harmonisation of Vehicle Regulations (WP.29) (http://www.unece.org/trans/main/welcwp29.html). All participating countries (EU is included in this) have signed a 1998 agreement voluntarily giving UNECE the legal framework of propagating type approvals for vehicles and their components. Essentially what this means is that WP.29 is the originator of standards which allows cars to be traded within the signatory states and which permits the sale of safety-critical spare parts. WP.29 currently has 57 signatories including the EU, Japan and South Korea. Here is a more detailed article on WP.29: https://www.reddit.com/ukpolitics/comments/8xyy1n/unece_wp29_is_one_example_of_the_benefit_of/
The UNECE instruments of relevance are called "UN Regulations" and these vary from headlamps to crashworthiness and environmental compatibility to tyres and wheels. What the EU does is copies and pastes these UN Regulations into the Single Market acquis--the EU is very clear about this in this case. For example, Regulation No 73/2007 on the uniform provisions concerning the approval of goods vehicles, trailers and semi-trailers with regard to their lateral protection, the EU tells us: "Only the original UN/ECE texts have legal effect under international public law. The status and date of entry into force of this Regulation should be checked in the latest version of the UN/ECE status document TRANS/WP.29/343" (https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:42010X0513(04)&amp;amp;amp;from=EN). More importantly, it's role is also exposed in DIRECTIVE 2007/46/EC (https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32007L0046&amp;amp;amp;from=EN). UNECE is supreme to the EU with respect to these releavnt matters it decrees upon.
Incredibly, there is even a Government report which acknowledges this:
In many instances, EU action needs to be seen in the context of international arrangements at the UN Economic Commission for Europe (UNECE). (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/278966/boc-transport.pdf)
And, remember, UNECE does not just deal with automotive regulation--it deals with agricultural regulation too. For example, when the "bendy banana" and "curvy cucumber" directives were dropped (this is when the EU abolished 26 of 36 marketing standards for fruits and veggies), the media made a great deal of this (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/2453204/Bent-banana-and-curved-cucumber-rules-dropped-by-EU.html). These were then replaced with General Marketing Standards (GMS)--you can read about this here https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2011:157:0001:0163:EN:PDF). These GMS's are actually UNECE standards! (http://www.unece.org/trade/agstandard/fresh/ffv-standardse.html). So in this case, the EU didn't actually drop regulations at all for the benefit of consumers but it bumped up the official standards setting to UNECE, which is now the supreme body in terms of agricultural standards. They even have their own Cucumber Standard (FFV-15) "concerning the marketing and commercial quality control of cucumbers" (http://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trade/agstandard/standard/fresh/FFV-Std/English/15_Cucumbers.pdf). No pictures, I'm afraid :3. So for cucumbers to be traded within the Single Market, they must conform to those UNECE standards.
UNECE creates standards relating to transport, agriculture and air and water pollution. This gives it a significant amount of regulatory power and influence over the EU. It also had a role in the controversial ISDS mechanisms found in the TTIP via the UNCITRAL international arbitration rule, but that's off-topic. One could imagine one day UNECE and other international standards organisations completely taking over and overhauling the Single Market acquis through the WTO TBT Agreement (that which EEA EFTA States and EU States follow) as the conveyor belt of globalisation and harmonisation of standards rolls on.
UNECE remains virtually unknown to people thanks to the ignorance of politicians and the wider media.
Also thanks to Dr Richard North and EFTA4UK!
submitted by CupTheBallls to ukpolitics [link] [comments]

hazardous goods classifications uk video

continue with the assessment of hazardous properties in steps 4 to 7. This will be used to • identify which code applies, and • complete the hazardous waste consignment note. Waste holders have a duty to determine if a “mirror entry” waste is hazardous or non-hazardous. A ‘ ’ For many years Rhenus Logistics has provided a specialist service for the international shipment of liquid chemicals, oxidising agents, flammable and compressed gases, poisons, powders and granules, both packed and in bulk – in fact, the majority of hazardous cargo classifications. Hazardous Area Classification and Control of Ignition Sources. This Technical Measures Document refers to the classification of plant into hazardous areas, and the systematic identification and control of ignition sources. The relevant Level 2 Criteria are 5.2.1.3(29)c, 5.2.1.11(63)f, 5.2.1.13 and 5.2.4.2(93)a. There are various classifications for Dangerous Goods and all should be shipped by a certified HAZMAT courier. Worldwide Express has the knowledge and experience to ship these goods safely and securely. The carriage of dangerous goods by road, rail, inland waterway, sea and air is regulated internationally by European agreements, directives and regulations, and parallel legislation in the UK. Explosives are classed as any goods or materials that are designed to combust or set alight when chemical reaction is triggered. Established 1992. Call us on. 0116 2689 803. (UK) Ltd can contact me with updates regarding their services. I understand that I can opt-out at any time. 3 User Guide for Thresholds and Classifications January 2012 EPA0109 Preface The Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act 1996 (HSNO Act) reforms and restates the law relating to the management of hazardous substances and new organisms in New Zealand. See ADR at 2.1.3.8 and 2.2.9.1.10. This means that all dangerous goods, not just those directly assigned UN 3077 (solids) or UN 3082 (liquids), meeting the relevant criteria will be regarded as environmentally hazardous substances and required to show the “dead fish and tree” mark. In support of the mission of Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration (FMCSA) to improve truck and bus safety on our nation's highways, the Agency enforces rules and regulations designed specifically to govern the movement of Hazardous Materials (HM). These are considered hazardous goods for many reasons; often they are flammable, they can oxidize (chemically react with oxygen), act as asphyxiants and be toxic or corrosive. Although it is a lot easier to identify gases based on their physical states and substances, identifying the most commonly transported gases is still worthwhile.

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